Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 173 posts

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#101

Post by brmgb »

skummetmaelk wrote: post #36
mikedilger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

Can you explain which unelected officials you are talking about specifically. How does the number of unelected officials differ from the national government of the UK? In both cases there is a parliament where you vote for someone to represent your area. You cannot vote for anyone outside your area. In the EU your area is a country and in the UK your area is a smaller part of the country. If you live in Scotland, nor…

Wanting to retain local sovereignty rather than be part of a larger block seems to me like a legitimate reason to be in favour of Brexit regardless of the democratic legitimity of the EU.

It's not one I agree with but it certainly seems respectable to me.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#102

Post by jimnotgym »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #92
sleavey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

> Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. Sure, but this is true of all issues. It doesn't distinguish brexit in any way. The usual thought is that that's how things are supposed to be. If you withheld the franchise to people who were qualified to exercise it, almost nobody would be allowed to vote.

Or you could have a representative democracy like the UK, where you vote in a specialist to go and understand the detail for you.

It is an amazing constitutional step to rip this up and start holding referendums!

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#103

Post by pknight »

mikedilger wrote: post #28
te_chris wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a govt risk assessment document, not just “politics”. Assuming you’re a brexiteer....what exactly is the positive case for brexit now? Because no one I can hear is making it, merely saying it has to happen, like a visit to one’s in laws that destroys the economy and fractures society.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

The sovereignty argument for Brexit in practice is counterintuitive, it often implies it enhances ones choices and power over things.

But being an EU member state doesn't give away sovereignty, it's a way of expressing your sovereignty; it's pooling it with others in order to do things you can't do on your own. A leaving member state has a different menu of choices it can make, but because it's position is weaker, the choices are at best narrowed down, or at worst set by other parties.

In the case of the UK, it can choose between favouring a US market over a EU market, but each choice imposes restrictions set entirely by others. The EU will insist on a higher bar of conduct to pass, as part of its level playing field approach. The US will insist on limiting the UK's ability to raise the bar where it sees fit, so that US companies can more readily exploit the UK market, unencumbered by impediments it finds today in the form of things like food safety standards.

And you have to pick one or the other. Today the UK was able to influence the environment that most affected it, because it was a member of the EU. Tomorrow larger parties are shaping what the UK can choose from, with little say in it for British voters. This is a form of sovereignty shrinkage.

The idea that Brexit returns sovereignty is misleading and I suspect a lot of people will be disappointed when they find out in practice what it means.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#104

Post by beachy »

mschuster91 wrote: post #38
throwaway122379 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? EU is loose federation of 28 EQUAL members I think the UK has a problem with being an equal and has not got over its loss of empire, just look at how they treat their own constituent countries such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales

> What? EU is loose federation of 29 EQUAL members To be fair: whatever us Germans and the French want, we eventually get - most often by outright nation-scale bribery. It's all backroom dealing - for example, us Germans get no opposition preventing harsher pollution regimes EU-wide (to protect our heavy car-oriented industry), the countries which would oppose get EU funding grants for construction or whatever.

To be fair: an economically stronger partner getting more of what they want because of backroom dealing etc. is not a "german/french dictatorship" as stated by OP - it's simple realpolitik.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#105

Post by pushpop »

sleavey wrote: post #57
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Indeed. A recent poll was quoted on yesterday's "Any Questions?" show on BBC Radio 4 by a Brexiteer, which apparently asked the public "should MPs represent their own views or those of their constituents?". Some small number of voters - I forget, but it was around 7% - thought they should represent their own views and the rest thought those of their constituents. This was, in the Brexiteer's view, evidence that MPs d…

I might agree with you if it were even possible to be an expert on every subject. Sadly the only thing MPs are experts on is being MPs. Which is why we are in such a bloody mess: the general public are, generally, ill informed; MPs don’t give a shit as long as their career benefits; and the actual experts of their respective fields get ignored because nobody gives a shit about the opinion of actual experts in the era of social media.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#106

Post by samsonradu »

beaner wrote: post #19
don_neufeld wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won’t recover, that’s not how trade works.

EU is more than just a trade agreement and there is nothing preventing trade agreements between the UK and the EU from being developed post-brexit.

Watching the UK negotiating a trade deal with the USA and China at the same time, considering the current geopolitical climate, will be outright interesting. Also take the HK situation into consideration.

Hard to imagine a good outcome.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#107

Post by mettamage »

sleavey wrote: post #34
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see…

I didn't joke, I'm simply naive about these things. The general public learned a thing or two about referendums, maybe they would now recast their vote? If so, then wouldn't that help?

I understand the downvotes as this idea seems silly, I did not mean to propose a silly idea or an idea for fun. I simply don't know the fundamental reasons as to why this idea is silly.

It might come as a shock: but I really am this naive. Let that sink in, an HN member, not interested that much in politics, who does not understand why this would not be a remotely feasible way out other than heuristically knowing it's not a good idea.

I daresay I'm not the only one.

If I'd have a vote in GB, then I'd have voted to stay. I am pro Europe and as a European, I was actually showing people this Kurzgesagt video [1] about why voting for or against the EU is important (apparently I have friends and family, some of them highly educated, who are even less interested in politics than I am).

---

I'll read the comments now, I'm sure I'll be better informed after this reading session.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxutY7ss1v4

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#108

Post by inflatableDodo »

ealexhudson wrote: post #33
Simulacra wrote: post #7

If true, would this not point towards avoiding such unions in the future?

No, it just points to a. Having a reasonable exit process (the default of two years makes no sense) and b. The public having the patience to understand 40+ years of cooperation can't be rolled back in a matter of months.

>"a. Having a reasonable exit process (the default of two years makes no sense)"

For comedy reasons, Article 50 was actually written for the EU, by Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a cross bench peer in the UK's House of Lords. This was after the UK insisted the EU adopt something draconian, to dissuade new members from screwing the EU around.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#109

Post by jashmatthews »

privateSFacct wrote: post #70
vesinisa wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government. E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

Totally false. And using fear in politics is nothing new. The US now has tariffs on Canada because of the "risk" Canada poses to national security. The idea that the UK crumbles (the document has things like cancer patients dying, folks with diabetes dying - its just an incredible list) seems far fetched. The UK operated prior to the EU without all these disasters.

> folks with diabetes dying

Back in 1975 things were very different. We didn't have recombinant insulin and diabetics died much more often.

It's not like we can flip a switch and go back to 1975, but keeping everything from 2019 running.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#110

Post by renaudg »

beaned wrote: post #61
burtonator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not... Some things should be left to experts. This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

Whether vaccines work or not may have a scientific answer, but it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves. Similarly, people make the individual choices to purchase an apple or invite someone into their home. EU participation is just this choice at scale, and the British people have every right to vote on it directly.

> it is still up to individuals to choose to use them for themselves.

Because of herd immunity, this is not just a personal choice but a public health matter. It's no more their choice to use vaccines than it is theirs to drunk drive.

Post reply on HN