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California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

wsj.com

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Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#141

Post by erikpukinskis »

ravenstine wrote: post #18
pjc50 wrote: post #2

> Without wishing to return to the Elizabethan Poor Laws, we ought to consider what was lost when the courts discouraged Americans from thinking of “homelessness” in light of the old laws against vagrancy. Ah, so we're back to imprisoning the homeless (at huge expense) rather than providing, say, public toilets or shelter facilities. Not only is the WSJ not learning from history, they don't want to learn from history…

There are public toilets in some of these cities. San Francisco has had self-cleaning public toilets for a long time, but probably has the worst feces problem of any first world country. On Google maps, it appears there are at least 20 public bathrooms in SF within a few miles radius. That's way more than I see when searching for the same thing in Santa Monica, another homeless mecca that doesn't have anywhere near t…

SF does not have ample public toilets. 20 bathrooms in one of the largest cities in the world is nothing. Many of them are single stalls. We need one per block.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#142

Post by erikpukinskis »

empath75 wrote: post #4
pjc50 wrote: post #2

> Without wishing to return to the Elizabethan Poor Laws, we ought to consider what was lost when the courts discouraged Americans from thinking of “homelessness” in light of the old laws against vagrancy. Ah, so we're back to imprisoning the homeless (at huge expense) rather than providing, say, public toilets or shelter facilities. Not only is the WSJ not learning from history, they don't want to learn from history…

We need better mental health care, and cheaper housing.

Where do you poop during the year you’re pulling your mental health out of the gutter though?

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#144

Post by cameldrv »

pmoriarty wrote: post #129
cameldrv wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. SF has had a big homeless population for some time unfortunately, but the poop on the streets is fairly new. What changed? 1. ADA private right of action spawned a class of professional plaintiffs that sue businesses over (in many cases) minor technical ADA violations like not having a coat hook at the right height in the bathroom. Many, many businesses closed their bathrooms to the public because of this. 2.…

"1. ADA private right of action spawned a class of professional plaintiffs that sue businesses over (in many cases) minor technical ADA violations like not having a coat hook at the right height in the bathroom. Many, many businesses closed their bathrooms to the public because of this." I'd like to see the stats on the number of frivolous ADA lawsuits that caused businesses to close their bathrooms. In my personal e…

The ADA thing is relatively new. If you go anywhere in California, not just areas with a large homeless population, you'll find most businesses do not have a public restroom. This is different than every other state I've been to. This is because California has the Unruh Civil Rights Act, which makes each ADA violation subject to $4000 statutory damages, regardless of the actual damages. Thousands of these cases are filed every year in California. California businesses don't want to be exposed to this liability, so most of them have closed their public restrooms.

This lack of bathrooms creates a sort of death spiral. In high homeless areas, the few remaining ones have to serve more homeless people. Dealing with a parade of homeless people using public bathrooms as a shower or shooting up causes the remaining businesses to close their bathrooms. It becomes more difficult for homeless people to use the bathroom, so rather than go to the trouble of finding one, many use the street.

On the enforcement side, I'm not really trying to be proscriptive, just descriptive. Jail is not a nice place. The threat of being arrested though is a deterrent to crime. If there is no deterrent to pooping on the street, and the alternative is difficult, people are going to poop on the street.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#145

Post by bradleyjg »

klyrs wrote: post #126
api wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My cynical take is that we just have to wait out the boomers. We changed and grew in every way until they took over and everything stopped. I think it will restart when they retire.

> My cynical take is that we just have to wait out the boomers... Not to double down on cynicism but what makes you think that oligarchs of the following generations will be any less self serving?

I don't think the people leading the charge down in the LES are disproportionately rich, at least unless you count the implicit value of a rent regulated apartment, what they are is disproportionately older. And I get it--change can be disorienting, construction is noisy, and so on. But this is literally Manhattan we are talking about. If not here, where?

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#147

Post by api »

klyrs wrote: post #126
api wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My cynical take is that we just have to wait out the boomers. We changed and grew in every way until they took over and everything stopped. I think it will restart when they retire.

> My cynical take is that we just have to wait out the boomers... Not to double down on cynicism but what makes you think that oligarchs of the following generations will be any less self serving?

The NIMBYs in California are mostly older and middle class. The oligarchs happen to mostly be on the right side at least on this particular issue.

I really think a big elephant in the room on this issue is racism. Restricting housing supply to hold prices high to exclude all but the already economically established is how liberals implement red lining without admitting their real motives even to themselves. They can pretend its about community, the environment (despite the fact that NIMBY policies encourage sprawl), etc.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#148

Post by zamfi »

turtlecloud wrote: post #133
zamfi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also a caricature. Some of the homeless are indeed able to hold job, and pay bills, etc., and just need a little extra help. They are not usually the ones defecating in the streets. Others need serious mental help. The line between the two is not the subtle “infinite variety” you make it out to be.

Dude. Most of the time people complain about homeless it is the crazy people that shit on the streets. Don’t change the subject by saying people that sleep in cars or on friends couch’s shouldn’t be criticized too. They aren’t. That is why I propose a new term for the people most of us complain about. I use the term crazies or untouchables.

Huh? I’m not sure who you’re replying to.

There are a number of people who are mentally ill, are unhoused, and need professional mental health help on an ongoing basis. They also need compassion, not a loaded stigmatizing label.

The other folks down on their luck need shelter beds and housing they can afford.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#149

Post by pmoriarty »

cameldrv wrote: post #144
pmoriarty wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. ADA private right of action spawned a class of professional plaintiffs that sue businesses over (in many cases) minor technical ADA violations like not having a coat hook at the right height in the bathroom. Many, many businesses closed their bathrooms to the public because of this." I'd like to see the stats on the number of frivolous ADA lawsuits that caused businesses to close their bathrooms. In my personal e…

The ADA thing is relatively new. If you go anywhere in California, not just areas with a large homeless population, you'll find most businesses do not have a public restroom. This is different than every other state I've been to. This is because California has the Unruh Civil Rights Act, which makes each ADA violation subject to $4000 statutory damages, regardless of the actual damages. Thousands of these cases are f…

"If there is no deterrent to pooping on the street, and the alternative is difficult, people are going to poop on the street."

So what is the alternative when there are no public bathrooms around?

To me it doesn't sound like there is one. So why arrest people when they have no choice?

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#150

Post by lobotryas »

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

What do you do for people who refuse to go to a shelter for any number of reasons and just want to continue doing what they’ve been doing for years now?

Not trying to put you on the spot with a “if you don’t have a solution...” trope, it’s just something I’ve always wondered.

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