Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#31

Post by yogthos » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #11

yogthos wrote: post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

Censorship and avoidance of discussion of serious topics certainly is a thing in the american media, however it operates mostly on the basis of backscratching, co-opting and voluntary pushing of viewpoints by private media establishments. Its not difficult to find dissenting voices on pretty much any topics you care to name, and calls for collective action too, and nobody does much (or in reality, can do much) to sto…

Of course, the style of control is different, but the effect is the same. In the West we have an illusion of freedom and choice. We get to say whatever we like, we get to go an vote for any approved candidate, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what the oligarchy wants.

The biggest issue is that the media is owned by the oligarchy, and so as you note any opinions that fall outside the accepted norm are ignored. This completely perverts democracy as unbiased media is crucial to having informed public that can vote meaningfully. It's simply not realistic to expect individuals to do their own research and become experts on many different subjects in order to vote because any individual subject can take years of study to grasp properly. The job of the journalists is to do this research for the benefit of the public and then present it in a way that's meaningful to the layman. When the media stops doing its job democracy dies.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#32

Post by yorwba » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #19

cameronbrown wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be able to elaborate more on your 2nd paragraph?

The one that stands out to me is a girl I know from Shenzhen. Very intelligent, very articulate and someone I've pigeonholed as rising-star-in-leadership-somewhere material. She's basically maintaining what seems to me to be a fairly passionate cross between an attack on the protestors and a defense of Chinese national pride. The two main prongs are that the protestors are disruptive/the protests cause injury (citing…

> Even if it is simply getting an English translation of the CCP propaganda that would be helpful

Try http://www.globaltimes.cn/ http://en.people.cn/ or http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/ for CCP propaganda in English.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#33

Post by throwaway2048 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #31

throwaway2048 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship and avoidance of discussion of serious topics certainly is a thing in the american media, however it operates mostly on the basis of backscratching, co-opting and voluntary pushing of viewpoints by private media establishments. Its not difficult to find dissenting voices on pretty much any topics you care to name, and calls for collective action too, and nobody does much (or in reality, can do much) to sto…

Of course, the style of control is different, but the effect is the same. In the West we have an illusion of freedom and choice. We get to say whatever we like, we get to go an vote for any approved candidate, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what the oligarchy wants. The biggest issue is that the media is owned by the oligarchy, and so as you note any opinions that fall outside the accepted n…

The effect is most certainly not the same, the fact that we are able to carry on this conversation on an American news site is evidence of that.

If the only thing that mattered was what the oligarchy wanted, Trump would have never been elected, because from all accounts he was widely loathed by those in power, even within his own party, not that it makes him a good president, but its compelling evidence that they have less power than you are assuming.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#34

Post by entropea » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #11

yogthos wrote: post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

Censorship and avoidance of discussion of serious topics certainly is a thing in the american media, however it operates mostly on the basis of backscratching, co-opting and voluntary pushing of viewpoints by private media establishments. Its not difficult to find dissenting voices on pretty much any topics you care to name, and calls for collective action too, and nobody does much (or in reality, can do much) to sto…

How many people never see the small news website telling the unabated truth but are only getting 65 patreons every month and a few tens of thousands of hits, if that?

Now compare that to the viewership of USA's political propaganda network, Fox, MSNBC, WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc. The things mass media says will make it to the general public, true or not, the small dissenting voice will reach a select amount of nobodies.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#35

Post by yogthos » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

nothingnewhere wrote: post #12

yogthos wrote: post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Nope, just pointing out that it's more productive to focus on fixing your own country instead of worrying about China. If you have exact same problems, but you ignore them and obsess about China instead then you're not helping anybody including yourself. Worrying about China is akin to worrying about the weather on Mars, there's nothing you can do about it and it doesn't affect you. Meanwhile, what your own government is doing both affects you and something you can have an impact on.

So really talking about China is the real whataboutism here.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#36

Post by spaceprison » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #24

kazen44 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is exactly what an oppressive government wants. as long as people are able to discuss politics with their friends, they have a outlet to vent without being able to actually form political resistance.

It's an interpretation, but not the most charitable one. Our idea of an oppressive autocratic government is more similar to that exemplified in Orwell's 1984- a government that prevents and punishes expression of dissenting ideas at any level, even the private one (you never know if the friend or person you're talking to could be a police informer). Another interpretation could be that China cares about, or simply co…

These sound like the same thing.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#37

Post by yogthos » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #33

yogthos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the style of control is different, but the effect is the same. In the West we have an illusion of freedom and choice. We get to say whatever we like, we get to go an vote for any approved candidate, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what the oligarchy wants. The biggest issue is that the media is owned by the oligarchy, and so as you note any opinions that fall outside the accepted n…

The effect is most certainly not the same, the fact that we are able to carry on this conversation on an American news site is evidence of that. If the only thing that mattered was what the oligarchy wanted, Trump would have never been elected, because from all accounts he was widely loathed by those in power, even within his own party, not that it makes him a good president, but its compelling evidence that they hav…

[flagged]

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#38

Post by OnlyRepliesToBS » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #35

nothingnewhere wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Nope, just pointing out that it's more productive to focus on fixing your own country instead of worrying about China. If you have exact same problems, but you ignore them and obsess about China instead then you're not helping anybody including yourself. Worrying about China is akin to worrying about the weather on Mars, there's nothing you can do about it and it doesn't affect you. Meanwhile, what your own governmen…

lol

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#39

Post by xster » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #23

roenxi wrote: post #4

Living in Australia, I've been exposed to both Hong Kong and mainlander Chinese people and I've developed an opinion. Australia really needs to start working harder to understand them than they do to understand us. In light of the recent disturbances in HK I read things like this paper with renewed interest. The views of the mainlanders on HK are fascinating in how alien they are in contrast to how the Australian pre…

I live and work in Shenzhen and am doing an MBA in Hong Kong. As one mainlander told me, Hong Kong can protest for democracy as much as they want, but independence from the mainland isn't ok, that's the line that can't be crossed. Of course, the government's long-term stance on democracy in Hong Kong is more complicated and he didn't speak to me on behalf of the government. Hong Kong is an extremely touchy subject fo…

Ya, all excellent points. Thanks for being analytical when so much discussion is a direct jump into dogma these days.

It’s pretty much exactly what this HK lady says as well https://youtu.be/WgplCDxvXN4 (sorry, it’s in canto). The reference to Lee Kuan Yew was particularly interesting.

Re: Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf]

#40

Post by gitrog » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #5

Exactly same thing can be said about US [1]. It really fascinates me how much focus there is on China when exact same things like suppression of political opinion and mass surveilance are happening in the West. I think it would be far more productive to focus on fixing shit here than to obsess about China as if everything was fine in the West. Meanwhile the West is still fueling the genocide in Yemen by the Saudis ma…

For the record, I posted this specifically because I feel that it provides a clearer picture of what censorship in China really is like, as opposed to the cartoonishly evil portrayal that most of Western media paints it in.

Although I don't condone censorship overall, I do find it interesting and identify that governments will always find it necessary to impose some form of societal control.

From this study, it seems to me that the Chinese government chooses to prevent events that may cause conflict and violence. That is almost noble, were it not for the fact that it also helps the government maintain a firm grip of control in all situations. I think there is also something to be said for the Great Firewall and how it manages to keep gigantic companies like Facebook and Google from interfering with foreign countries and how it spurs local companies to come up with similar solutions. The drawbacks are all obvious and I don't think it's necessary to repeat those here.

The way that political dissent is managed in the West is so much more chaotic, and generally more violent. The public is split in two (usually) and played against eachother which often results in violence on the streets. Although being able to protest is at least symbolically a good thing, I often wonder if it isn't mostly just another tool used to create the illusion of freedom. If the public is constantly bombarded with misinformation and fear-mongering tactics it's highly unlikely that any sort of unified protest could convert to real, regime threatening change.

So I agree with you that we should be critical of the West, and honestly this post wasn't a jab at Chinese politics in favour of the West, it was more of a learning experience for myself.