The Dubai Job • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dubai Job

#41

Post by Symmetry » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 9:02 PM UTC

badmash69 wrote: post #30

sophacles wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the guidlines -- "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" is the short and sweet rule. I find well written pieces about things I normally don't know much about intellectually gratifying. More so, actually, than yet another "awesome vim tricks (that any reasonably experienced user already knows)" or "look at this awesome revolutionary thing in node.js (that turns out to be a standard async pattern)"…

As long as we are cherry picking text from guidelines to support our POV, here is my pick " ..If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. " This stuff has been covered on TV. May be not on the channel that you like to watch --- but it has been covered. Search BBC or CNN. From CNN.com: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-26/world/israel.mossad.repor... And that is why I think is topic is better suited to Reddi…

And you'll notice that the BBC and CNN reports don't have any of the background or details that would give you intellectual gratification. "Mossad killed a guy, here are all the press releases we were sent" like the BBC and CNN news certainly wouldn't belong on Hackers News, but I think this article does.

Re: The Dubai Job

#42

Post by sophacles » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 9:16 PM UTC

badmash69 wrote: post #36

sophacles wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another "cherry picked" phrase from on-topic is "That includes more than just hacking and startups". Note also that I have now quoted more of the On-topic guidelines than I have left out. As for the TV thing -- were you sure to bitch about the topicality of the iPhone release based on this guideline? What about the "stolen" iPhone? How about anything wikileaks related? All the stuff posted here about academia? Do mat…

"bitch" -- no never. I only express my disagreement. Nobody posted "stolen" iPhone story here 6 months after the fact. The Dubai news story has been covered on TV and is very old. More cherry picked quote from the guidelines -- "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports ...." You are right , hacking is not just about node.js. Personally speaking, I love articles from Academia , and maths , even when…

Tomorrow, if someone posted an article with in-depth analysis of the stolen iPhone affair, including retrospectives about how this affected iPhone4 hype, how it affected sales, and how it has affected TechCrunch's reputation, would you complain? Note -- I am specifically mentioning the new content because it is directly mappable to the parent article, there is stuff in TFA that has not ever been compiled as a single source for outsiders and those with casual interest to pick up on.

As for your cherry picking -- you are obviously pretty bad at it: most does not mean all, which means this story should be investigated on the grounds of "is it like the bulk of other political and crime stories". This article is unlike well over 90% of crime and politics stories, both on the face of it an on deeper inspection. Those other stories simply report crime with vague speculation on motive, and no details on follow-up. Political stories are usually he-said/she-said pieces on the fights between personalities. This doesn't match those, and therefore doesn't qualify as "most". Good try, tho!

Re: The Dubai Job

#43

Post by kevinskii » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 9:17 PM UTC

...they somehow managed to chain the door from the inside.

This to me has always been the more curious detail of the operation.

Re: The Dubai Job

#44

Post by tkahn6 » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 9:21 PM UTC

mih wrote: post #37

doron wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constant trickle of rockets creates a very poor incentive for any economic development, leaving an already troubled region in a spiraling economic downturn and brain drain for those who are able to leave. Other effects will surely be realized as time goes by, the constant disruption of the education system in the entire region comes to mind.

Are we speaking about the Israeli or the Palestinian side of the border? On one side economic development maybe suppressed, but across the border people struggle for the basic necessities of life. As everyone knows, there is no easy solution to this except for both parties to redress their mistakes. As long as there is oppression and no justice, both will be the losers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1a6faeIZG4

Assuming this is in fact, Gaza city, if there is indeed a market for iPhone 4s and they have high end refrigerators stores, I think this is a wealth distribution problem. Clearly there is high poverty in Gaza (60% according to one article I read), but also there is a substantial middle class.

Re: The Dubai Job

#45

Post by daten » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 9:26 PM UTC

kevinskii wrote: post #43

...they somehow managed to chain the door from the inside. This to me has always been the more curious detail of the operation.

There are tricks for unlocking it with something as simple as rubber bands. ( http://blackbag.nl/?p=1315 )

There are also tools for sale that go under the door for manipulating such locks. I imagine those could be used to replace the chain. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAkJRpKeyYg )

It should be even easier than unlocking it since you have access from the inside to set something up that you could pull from the outside after closing the door.

Re: The Dubai Job

#46

Post by CapitalistCartr » Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 10:06 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #40

varjag wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to take a dive here from Mossad fanboys, but Stuxnet can just as well (if not more likely) be a U.S. product, precisely due to its technical sophistication.

More likely a combination of both: Mossad for the details of what is inside Iran's program and deploying the worm, and the US for the technical skills to build it.

Israeli software skills are excellent. Of all the assets the US could provide, that's one Israel doesn't need and likely wouldn't accept. The US could provide electronic surveillance: locations of people, details of local police operations, satellite photos, etc.

Re: The Dubai Job

#47

Post by sp4rki » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:15 AM UTC

badmash69 wrote: post #30

sophacles wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the guidlines -- "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" is the short and sweet rule. I find well written pieces about things I normally don't know much about intellectually gratifying. More so, actually, than yet another "awesome vim tricks (that any reasonably experienced user already knows)" or "look at this awesome revolutionary thing in node.js (that turns out to be a standard async pattern)"…

As long as we are cherry picking text from guidelines to support our POV, here is my pick " ..If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. " This stuff has been covered on TV. May be not on the channel that you like to watch --- but it has been covered. Search BBC or CNN. From CNN.com: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-26/world/israel.mossad.repor... And that is why I think is topic is better suited to Reddi…

Facebook has been 'covered on TV news' also, and hell a movie has been made about it. Would you call an interesting article about Facebook something that shouldn't be on Hacker news because it was covered on TV?

"if they'd cover it on TV News, it's probably off-topic"

Keyword being probably. In any case the OP is right. This post gratifies one's intellectual curiosity (or at least mine, though it seems like most of HN thinks the same), and is a breath of fresh air in comparison to the dozens of Vim tips type of posts you find throughout the day.

Re: The Dubai Job

#48

Post by nir » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:23 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #31

forensic wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering all the details about their own operations that were leaked, I bet they wish they had spent more time to get it perfect. It's not like Israel is incapable of perfect assassinations. It's just a question of dedicating enough resources - time, money, manpower. This has not only exposed agents and caused a diplomatic mess, it has exposed operational details: - the hacking of hotels - the use of disguises and…

People saying that Mossad messed up by getting caught on camera never really made sense to me. They clearly knew they were going to be on camera, and they had to have known that that footage would be reviewed in the future. Since they knew they were going to be on camera but did it anyway, it pretty clearly was a risk they calculated and decided was an acceptable payoff. Currently it looks like nearly 30 people were…

This was very much seen as a fiasco in Israel, by the general public and reportedly by Mossad itself. Mossad director Meir Dagan had to step down recently, almost certainly as result of the Dubai debacle.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/mossad-chief-m...

Re: The Dubai Job

#49

Post by wyclif » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:50 AM UTC

nir wrote: post #48

burgerbrain wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People saying that Mossad messed up by getting caught on camera never really made sense to me. They clearly knew they were going to be on camera, and they had to have known that that footage would be reviewed in the future. Since they knew they were going to be on camera but did it anyway, it pretty clearly was a risk they calculated and decided was an acceptable payoff. Currently it looks like nearly 30 people were…

This was very much seen as a fiasco in Israel, by the general public and reportedly by Mossad itself. Mossad director Meir Dagan had to step down recently, almost certainly as result of the Dubai debacle. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/mossad-chief-m...

Yes, but like I said that was just collateral damage and predicted. Mossad knew the passports would be traced back to the UK. They took the PR hit in order to achieve the greater goal.

Re: The Dubai Job

#50

Post by kiddo » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 2:36 AM UTC

badmash69 wrote: post #14

Downvote me if you will, but I do not think this article belong on the front page of Hacker news. It is a interesting illuminating article but it belongs on Reddit or even Slashdot.

I knew the basic outline of this story beforehand and yet I read the article anyway.

A few new things that stood out:

- the description of Dagan's mgmt style and how it negatively affected the mission

- the way the author (a presumably non-techie) described the lock picking and practicing of lock picking (did the picker actually test the picking of the locks as the author suggests or did the team assume the locks would be electronic and simply bring a device that could pick any known lock?). the author glosses over this and makes a short inference, but it made me wonder.

- the Austrian private switchboard. i didn't know this kind of thing existed. can i get access to one?

So I agree with comments from many other people about it just being an interesting story, but those are 3 bits that made me think and made it worth my time.