A Walk in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#291

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

xkgt wrote: post #109

TASMebWdhWc9NeA wrote: post #51

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

//Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the Chinese culture. This is exactly a regurgitation of the propaganda by CCP. They blamed western influence, education and cultural whitewashing of HK Chinese as the reason for the current protests and their citizens believe it sincerely. They conveniently overlook the crux of the protest, which is to ask for universal suffrage. Even for a w…

> I have some friends from mainland, currently staying in HK, who sincerely believe the general public is too naive to be allowed to make any decision. With the right amount of conditioning, people can be led to believe in anything even if it is contrarian to their well-being.

One can see grounds for arguing this in recent history, and not just in Hong Kong. But, to paraphrase C. S. Lewis: "Some say that the public is too naive to be allowed to decide. I do not contradict them. But I am still a democrat, because I see nobody wise enough to decide for others."

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#292

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

gnulinux wrote: post #288

HNcantBtrustd wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 2000 years, much of human progress came in the form of freedom. In recent times it seems there is a pushback towards less.

This is absolutely not true, only this decade we've been in a momentum for worldwide progress for LGBT rights, many states now have more liberal drug laws. Moreover, I cannot think of one thing that we were free to do a few decades ago and we're restricted to do now. There is an alarmist rhetoric in libertarian community (especially r/libertarian et al) that the West is keep getting more authoritarian, whereas the fa…

Airports are one great example. So are government regulations, which with a few exceptions tend to get more expansive over time.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#293

Post by CharlesColeman » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #246

aqrcxvz wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. The govt can still proceed with the second and third readings and pass the law in a day. If withdrawn, the bill will need to go through the whole process. https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/bills/bill_1620.htm

Isn't that what I wrote? Than they can bring it back no matter what? The protesters have also now made sure that the government will not bulge. Because that would send the message that they cave in to violence.

You wrote:

> so protesters would not gain anything apart from having humiliated the executive even more.

But that's wrong, if the bill is totally withdrawn the protesters would gain time if something similar was ever re-introduced. Time they can use to organize protests to fight it again, if need be. It sounds like the current "suspended" bill is fairly far along in the legislative process, and could be passed quickly.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#294

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

rqs wrote: post #113

Joakal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for tha…

If by "lose face" you mean display of weakness, then you probably right. The government don't actually care about face here, they only care about outcome. In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. The government needs Hongkong, and hey need Hongkong under control, just like the rest of C…

> In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead.

Mostly right, but there is no sentiment on the mainland that the government never makes mistakes. Quite the opposite.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#295

Post by pertymcpert » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

tombh wrote: post #285

keiferski wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply don't see how someone could simultaneously support self-determination and yet determine "legitimacy" via some nation-state government elites and not by the actual people living there. If you believe in democratic values, it's irrelevant if Hong Kong is "legitimate" in the eyes of the CCP. This type of self-determining situation can be tricky in other circumstances (see: U.S. Civil War or Catalonia for some e…

You still seem to think that I'm trying to argue that we should take China's side. Let me put it like this. Imagine I'm an alcoholic, but I can't afford rehab, so I steal the money to check myself in. I get better and everyone in the world agrees that my new state of sobriety is the best possible outcome for me. However the police find out, I go to court, get a big fine, get depressed and start drinking again. I ask…

Your last paragraph sounds very bitter from you. Like it's almost personal?

Hate to break it to you, but the rich elite in the UK will not suffer because of Brexit. The poor will suffer, as they have always done. The elite will be just fine, and probably be in a position to strengthen their standings from the chaos.

And finally, what is your conclusion on China then? You are not arguing they're in the right, so what? What's your suggestion? What's your take? What should the CCP be doing right now? Should they be implementing democratic reform on the mainland to converge with the HK culture more?

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#296

Post by mytailorisrich » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #293

mytailorisrich wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what I wrote? Than they can bring it back no matter what? The protesters have also now made sure that the government will not bulge. Because that would send the message that they cave in to violence.

You wrote: > so protesters would not gain anything apart from having humiliated the executive even more. But that's wrong, if the bill is totally withdrawn the protesters would gain time if something similar was ever re-introduced. Time they can use to organize protests to fight it again, if need be. It sounds like the current "suspended" bill is fairly far along in the legislative process, and could be passed quickl…

If the only thing gained is the time to organise more protests it rather proves my point...

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#297

Post by mytailorisrich » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

germanier wrote: post #283

mytailorisrich wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Widely publicising is not the same as an expectation of privacy, strictly speaking.

The court's argument does not hinge on the "widely publicized" nature but on her "legitimate expectation of protection of and respect for their private life". If you still want to argue semantics, I would like to quote the ECHR again ( P.G. and J.H. v. The United Kingdom ) > There are a number of elements relevant to a consideration of whether a person’s private life is concerned by measures effected outside a person…

Except this is not semantics at all. It specifically mentions publication.

Again, limits to publication is not the same as an expectation of privacy, which cannot exist in a public place.

This is why invoking privacy when arguing against surveillance in public places is nonsensical.

I note that while my main point was the difference between privacy vs. anonymity people argue on a detail...

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#298

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

athrowayyyy wrote: post #169

davedx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is Asian culture?

The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. It allows to make a number of points, such that foreign country X is the enemy, immigrants from country Y could never integrate, critics from foreign country Z should shut…

Unbridgeable cultural gaps, as a general matter, are very real. I recently read Record of the Listener ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/1624666841/ ), which is a collection of stories published in China in the 12th century. And far and away my most common takeaway from any of the stories was "wow, I have no idea what I'm supposed to think about this". And these stories were published for their entertainment value!

Similarly, immigrant groups tend not to integrate, critics from foreign countries really are usually misunderstanding a large number of important points, and so on.

Between any two cultures, there is a huge amount of overlap. But nothing quite coincides, and the differences end up mattering a lot.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#299

Post by reroute1 » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #232

dragonsh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree with you nationalism is ingrained from childhood and this makes it harder for minority who are against blind nationalism. This has been true for all the 70+ countries I lived and traveled. But I still believe in this quote: "Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as…

patriotism != nationalism

obviously he just gave a quote explaining that

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#300

Post by CharlesColeman » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #296

CharlesColeman wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: > so protesters would not gain anything apart from having humiliated the executive even more. But that's wrong, if the bill is totally withdrawn the protesters would gain time if something similar was ever re-introduced. Time they can use to organize protests to fight it again, if need be. It sounds like the current "suspended" bill is fairly far along in the legislative process, and could be passed quickl…

If the only thing gained is the time to organise more protests it rather proves my point...

No, it doesn't. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on your misconception, but you seem to assume all time periods are equivalent and practically meaningless.

Withdrawal of the bill and gaining enough time to mount a response in the future, if necessary, is an absolutely important achievement. It means the protests can stop without the risk of fly-by-night passage. It means the potential of future protests can be a deterrent to future introduction of the bill.