A Walk in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#281

Post by tombh » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #251

tombh wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course their yearning and indeed protest actions are legitimate. To what extent though would you agree that, using the computer world's RFC vocabulary (MUST, SHOULD, MAY, OPTIONAL, etc), Hong Kong MAY ask for recognition whereas Taiwan SHOULD ask for recognition? It feels to me that HK is exploiting the fact that most of the world automatically assumes big superpowers, especially little understood foreign ones, ar…

> preventing HK getting the actual relevant help that will bring about the most practical solution What is this help, and how is it being prevented? > When in fact China is a fundamental component in the global economy and everybody's quality of life, such that we all implicitly support it by, for example, buying their cheap-labour subsidised goods. How is that relevant?

HK is simultaneously supporting the vilification of China and the continued integration of China into the world. How are we supposed to oppose China and have cheap iPhones? If the citizen's of the world actually understood the situation then they would have more opportunity to exercise their economic and diplomatic powers.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#282

Post by icebraining » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #137

albertzeyer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transport / trains is just one of the most obvious aspects. Of course there are others (public schools, public universities, quality of streets, public healthcare, general safety, food quality, nature, many many more ...). Often they are very much correlated, though. Do I understand you right that you claim that while train service is bad in USA, there are other things / aspects which are better developed in U…

I'm the GP commenter, so not the person you replied to, but some random areas where I think the US certainly exceeds some/many European countries include air quality and quality of specialty healthcare (not health insurance or financial coverage). EDIT: To provide a random anecdote, if you've ever known someone who needed an ambulance in the south of Spain you'll know what I mean. ;) The public healthcare services do…

Seems like that year was a special case, and they (over?)corrected in the next: https://www.thelocal.se/20130204/45990

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#283

Post by germanier » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #260

germanier wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expectation of privacy in public places has never been a concept anywhere It's certainly a concept in Europe, see the famous Caroline cases. Quoting for example from the European Court of Human Rights case von Hannover v. Germany > The Court notes at the outset that in the present case the photos of the applicant in the various German magazines show her in scenes from her daily life, thus involving activities of a…

Widely publicising is not the same as an expectation of privacy, strictly speaking.

The court's argument does not hinge on the "widely publicized" nature but on her "legitimate expectation of protection of and respect for their private life". If you still want to argue semantics, I would like to quote the ECHR again (P.G. and J.H. v. The United Kingdom)

> There are a number of elements relevant to a consideration of whether a person’s private life is concerned by measures effected outside a person’s home or private premises. Since there are occasions when people knowingly or intentionally involve themselves in activities which are or may be recorded or reported in a public manner, a person’s reasonable expectations as to privacy may be a significant, although not necessarily conclusive, factor.

Here you have it on the record: Someone arguing that you can have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place. In conclusion, there are places in this world where this is a legally protected concept. Case closed.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#284

Post by zensavona » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

If anyone is interested, I actually happened to be in Hong Kong and attend the first wave of protests and took some photos: https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#285

Post by tombh » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #273

tombh wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it may look like I'm taking China's side, but I'm not. In fact it's the automatic dismissal of all possible attempts to understand the Chinese perspective that I'm fighting against. How does simply asserting one side to be the antagonist and leaving it at that, help the situation? If things are black and white then we miss the fact that HK's legitimacy is of a different kind to Taiwan's. Which in turn reinforc…

I simply don't see how someone could simultaneously support self-determination and yet determine "legitimacy" via some nation-state government elites and not by the actual people living there. If you believe in democratic values, it's irrelevant if Hong Kong is "legitimate" in the eyes of the CCP. This type of self-determining situation can be tricky in other circumstances (see: U.S. Civil War or Catalonia for some e…

You still seem to think that I'm trying to argue that we should take China's side.

Let me put it like this. Imagine I'm an alcoholic, but I can't afford rehab, so I steal the money to check myself in. I get better and everyone in the world agrees that my new state of sobriety is the best possible outcome for me. However the police find out, I go to court, get a big fine, get depressed and start drinking again. I ask for help from my friends, but I neglect to tell them about actually what happened, I allow them to entertain the idea that I am a total victim.

My point is that we need to know that context of a situation, or we can't truly help.

So I have to strongly disagree with you that history has nothing to do with Britain's current stance on HK. Britain is a sad, humiliated, crumbling nation. Brexit is in fact Britain's chickens coming home to roost from the very events of which HK is but one in a myriad of aggressive wounds on the world. Those rich, Eaton-educated families that got their wealth and arrogance through the authoritarian, totalitarian, anti-democratic practices of colonialism are finally beginning to find their true place in the world. Either Brexit happens and Britain suffers Northern Irish violence and Scottish independence, or Brexit is cancelled leading to the collapse of the Conservatives. Either way the core source of British "pride" has a very sobering journey ahead of it.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#286

Post by dmix » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

It's interesting how food is always the most in demand and lowest supply commodity in socialist countries (or more accurately lowest variety selection since they can barely produce enough staple foods, so they shut down the production of nice things limiting the local cultures ability to express themselves and enjoy food). You see it happening repeatedly even today in Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea, and historically in China and Russia.

You'd think farming would be something they could do right since they are obsessed with those types of workers, who are their bread-and-butter. But I guess it has more to do with the price controls (probably the worst way to make something 'cheaper') and inefficiencies in the centralized organizations who think they can plan this stuff.

The typical excuse used by socialists re: Soviet Russia was they were exporting food for guns (because evil America), but that doesn't equally to all of the socialists examples in history and is far more likely a direct result of their economic system.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#287

Post by SECProto » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

tombh wrote: post #227

SECProto wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a disingenuous take on their comment. They said it is culturally and linguistically distinct from the mainland ruling class. I think it's pretty easy to see how that arose from the historical separation. They specifically mention how it came from years of British rule, and skipping the cultural revolution. They didn't even mention Guangdong.

I think you've misunderstood both them and the geography of South China. They're clearly referring to the Cantonese speaking region, which is called Guangdong (which the British never owned), of which HK is a very small part (perhaps 1/30th of the size). It sounds like you think they were just talking about HK or that the British owned GUangdong. And even more confusingly attributing HK's linguistic distinctiveness t…

I think we've interpreted their post in different ways, but I don't see how my interpretation is incorrect. I know the history and geography both fairly well. The post said the difference is "especially in HK", and referenced the British influences on their culture. It also said HK is distinct partly due to language (Cantonese same as Guangdong, no mandarin unlike Guangdong, with English unlike Guangdong), partly due to history (was under British rule for 150 years).

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#288

Post by gnulinux » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

HNcantBtrustd wrote: post #245

j1vms wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist Reading this makes me think a very little bit of the Paris Commune [0], well in its early days perhaps. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

In the last 2000 years, much of human progress came in the form of freedom. In recent times it seems there is a pushback towards less.

This is absolutely not true, only this decade we've been in a momentum for worldwide progress for LGBT rights, many states now have more liberal drug laws. Moreover, I cannot think of one thing that we were free to do a few decades ago and we're restricted to do now. There is an alarmist rhetoric in libertarian community (especially r/libertarian et al) that the West is keep getting more authoritarian, whereas the fact is it's always getting more and more liberal. Do you have an concrete examples maybe?

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#289

Post by CharlesColeman » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

tombh wrote: post #270

keiferski wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but at best, it's simply an explanation of the realpolitik motives of China. Yes, Hong Kong was ultimately created through some nefarious tactics by the British. But that was 150 years ago. The people living in Hong Kong now are overwhelming ethnic Chinese (92%), have their own culture, and while not perfect, are far more democratic and freedom-loving than the CCP is. If…

I know it may look like I'm taking China's side, but I'm not. In fact it's the automatic dismissal of all possible attempts to understand the Chinese perspective that I'm fighting against. How does simply asserting one side to be the antagonist and leaving it at that, help the situation? If things are black and white then we miss the fact that HK's legitimacy is of a different kind to Taiwan's. Which in turn reinforc…

> I know it may look like I'm taking China's side, but I'm not. In fact it's the automatic dismissal of all possible attempts to understand the Chinese perspective that I'm fighting against.

I think part of the problem is that while "attempting to understand" you're leaving out some important things. How did this "Chinese perspective" form? Was it natural, or deliberately formed or amplified with propaganda? What are the political motivations behind it? How much value should be put on irredentist nationalism, especially when wielded by an anti-liberal authoritarian ruling class against smaller more-liberal communities?

> If things are black and white then we miss the fact that HK's legitimacy is of a different kind to Taiwan's.

That really is a matter of perspective, isn't it? One could very validly argue that these "nuances of the history" that you're emphasizing are actually irrelevant to the posture that one should take to toward the current situation, and kind of a distraction. To put it another way, if you are considering slavery and have a slave in front of you, does it really matter if he's a slave because his parents were captured in a raid or if they were sold into slavery by his grandparents? Or should you focus on the slave's thoughts and his experiences? Maybe the his owner is adamant that his grandparents bought his slave's family fair-and-square, but how much effort should you make to empathize with that position?

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#290

Post by SCHiM » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

Is anyone in Hong Kong proactively setting up communication channels to the outside in case the military cracks down? In a worst case scenario it'd be good to have reliable high-bandwidth communication channels to the outside world. The time to establish them has past I think, but there might still be some quick-wins to make.

They will shut down and disrupt all normal communications the moment their operations begin.