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A Walk in Hong Kong

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Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#161

Post by loyukfai »

rqs wrote: post #113
Joakal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for tha…

If by "lose face" you mean display of weakness, then you probably right. The government don't actually care about face here, they only care about outcome. In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. The government needs Hongkong, and hey need Hongkong under control, just like the rest of C…

At the same time, PRC government doesn't want to turn HK instead exactly another Chinese city... (the closest one would be Shanghai, I guess.)

There are interesting historical issues, economical issues, geopolitics (especially Taiwan) and international politics at play.

But yes, in a certain sense the PRC want to turn HK into "the rest of China" alike, in the sense that you can have economic freedom and many other things, however politically one must submit to the supreme rule of the party.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#162

Post by vinay427 »

luckylion wrote: post #147
vinay427 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the GP commenter, so not the person you replied to, but some random areas where I think the US certainly exceeds some/many European countries include air quality and quality of specialty healthcare (not health insurance or financial coverage). EDIT: To provide a random anecdote, if you've ever known someone who needed an ambulance in the south of Spain you'll know what I mean. ;) The public healthcare services do…

> I'm the GP commenter, so not the person you replied to, but some random areas where I think the US certainly exceeds some/many European countries include air quality and quality of specialty healthcare. Choosing (small) areas and some samples doesn't make a lot of sense, though. Comparing a small city with a county hospital to some rural area and saying "see, there are areas here were medical services are much clos…

I wasn't comparing much of anything for ambulance response times because, as I said, I couldn't find concrete data on it. I'm not sure what rural area you're referring to but the anecdote from the south of Spain was in a city with over half a million people.

Anyway, as for air quality, a population adjusted measure of exposure: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/PM25-air-pollution

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#163

Post by tombh »

bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #135
tombh wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone else is open to the other point of view, I could use some help. I'm struggling a lot at the moment with how little relevance seems to be given to how significant HK was in defining China's modern identity. How many people actually know how HK came into being? That the supposedly democratic state of Britain who had already violently colonised India, used Indian land and serfs to grow 1000s of tons of Opium t…

The conclusion makes sense to me - that HK is not Taiwan. However, after so many generations I do think that some of the HK people do recognize the irony of how they got to their situation but that doesn't mean their yearning for the situation Taiwan has isn't legitimate.

Of course their yearning and indeed protest actions are legitimate. To what extent though would you agree that, using the computer world's RFC vocabulary (MUST, SHOULD, MAY, OPTIONAL, etc), Hong Kong MAY ask for recognition whereas Taiwan SHOULD ask for recognition?

It feels to me that HK is exploiting the fact that most of the world automatically assumes big superpowers, especially little understood foreign ones, are the bad guys, such that HK the underdog MUST fight for recognition. I think such framing of the conflict misrepresents the situation preventing HK getting the actual relevant help that will bring about the most practical solution. By which I mean most of the world unhelpfully sees the black and white of HK good, China bad. When in fact China is a fundamental component in the global economy and everybody's quality of life, such that we all implicitly support it by, for example, buying their cheap-labour subsidised goods. If we're genuinely interested in finding a way forward don't we need to reflect on these nuances? I know that's a big ask, but big problems usually require a big effort.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#164

Post by athrowayyyy »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #131
nbevans wrote: post #29

"All that prelude is to say, coming in to the Hong Kong protests from a less developed country like the United States is disorienting." This sentence got me hooked. It must be so alien to the average American that there are more developed countries/cities out there.

More developed mostly means ‘newer.’ These places will also have to figure out what it means to keep infrastructure refreshed in 50 years. It is always a struggle..

Many places in Europe run way older infrastructure yet feel more developed than top tier cities in the US, so I don't think that's the reason.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#165

Post by whoevercares »

roca wrote: post #63
TASMebWdhWc9NeA wrote: post #51

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own interests. Democracy and freedom are flourishing in Taiwan. They are flourishing in South Korea (who aren't Chinese but whose traditions are no more democratic than China's). They're doing OK in Japan. "The Chinese point of view" is an ambiguous term that the CCP us…

I saw the many citations of Taiwan, Korea and many other small country (even Japan) as the example that democracy can work as is for China. IMO the scale and population is drastically different. Couple things make it complicated:

1) over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understand democracy good luck educating millions of people across vast areas(thanks to Chinese government you might be able to take trains)

2)Middle and upper class Chineses have more different point of view, but they rarely choose to move since it’s against their own interests

3) The other countries listed are historically US strategic allies with even US troops deployed. Ironically what US did will only pushback Chinese people from wanting western style democracy

I believe democracy in China will happen one day (I believe it’ll be top-down) but the majority of the population doesn’t have any motivation right now

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#166

Post by odiroot »

throwaway1997 wrote: post #107
odiroot wrote: post #40

> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” They edge away. Funnily enough, myself being Polish, I found HK climate much more preferable than the Central European. I dread every end of summer; every winter kills my energy and work performance a bit more.

Even us locals suffer during the summer. It easily reached 35C with up to 90% humidity.

Yes I understand, peak summer is very sweaty. For me it's still nicer that freezing off and having to wear 4 different layers to survive.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#169

Post by athrowayyyy »

davedx wrote: post #45
spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

What exactly is Asian culture?

The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. It allows to make a number of points, such that foreign country X is the enemy, immigrants from country Y could never integrate, critics from foreign country Z should shut up because they can't possibly understand OUR culture, etc.

This kind of mentality goes beyond countries or cultures, but also affects differences between generations, genders, sexuality, etc. It is far more convenient to explain away different behaviors as "It should be expected, she's X" (or the flipped "I can't help it, I'm X") than trying to work out and overcome differences on an individual level. We're all guilty of it to some extent as it helps build a sense of identity (notably among minority groups) but the normative aspect of it is very harmful.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#170

Post by homonculus1 »

alexmlamb2 wrote: post #142
roca wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own interests. Democracy and freedom are flourishing in Taiwan. They are flourishing in South Korea (who aren't Chinese but whose traditions are no more democratic than China's). They're doing OK in Japan. "The Chinese point of view" is an ambiguous term that the CCP us…

I think you may not realize this, but you've been brainwashed by western propaganda (I grew up in the west, but I've been exposed to many different countries, so I understand this better now). The idea that "freedom" is the freedom for society to be controlled by large corporations and the wealthy is not the only notion of freedom, and many prefer a technocratic / meritocratic society over a plutocratic one. I think…

Large Western corporations do not select which books I'm permitted to read.

Large Western corporations do not forbid me from criticizing their CEO's.

Large Western corporations do not harvest organs from the poor.

Large Western corporations do not imprison minorities in concentration camps.

Large Western corporations do not scrape thousands of protesters into a gutter with bulldozers and disappear anyone who speaks of the incident

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