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A scientist must go where the evidence leads

blogs.scientificamerican.com

91–100 of 103 posts

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#91

I think a better way to state this is: If you're not going where the evidence leads then you are not a scientist. Too often we're using the wrong words, and that further complicates an always complex process (i.e., human communication). Other words that are also often misused are: leader and journalist.

Yeah, pretty much. There seems to be a misconception in some circles that pseudoscientific ideas, religious faith, etc are outright despised by 'scientists' because they somehow go against some naturalistic order or something rather than because the evidence for them isn't there/happens to be weak. It's basically the basis for the old 'flat Earth atheist' trope, the idea that fictional scientists will turn up their noses at claims of magic or ghosts or gods because they're 'not real', even if said universe has them clearly existing.

But this isn't how science works. A 'scientist' who ignores evidence because they don't want something to be true isn't a good scientist, and doesn't act at all like a real life one would. If clear evidence for Bigfoot or Nessie or whatever else was found, it'd become a normal part of science. If we suddenly saw religious style miracles occur in plain sight with no other possible explanation, the idea of a miracle would become a scientific concept that we'd try and study. And in the worlds of say, the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or Ghostbusters or the Legend of Zelda or whatever other franchise with things that don't exist in real life, those elements would be scientific in their universes too, with their scientists and academics studying them and their literature treating them like everyday things.

But yeah, despite certain fiction tropes and complaints from certain corners, science is about what the evidence says, not about some hard nosed disdain for anything not seen as 'logical'.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#92
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

e.g. Blu-Ray v VHS

I'm surprised disks are still as prevalent as they are for music and movies. Thumb-drives should have replaced them years ago. Perhaps there are copyright-related reasons holding it back?

> Thumb-drives should have replaced them years ago. Perhaps there are copyright-related reasons holding it back?

IIRC, thumb drives are far more unreliable and unstable than discs.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#93
post #91

I think a better way to state this is: If you're not going where the evidence leads then you are not a scientist. Too often we're using the wrong words, and that further complicates an always complex process (i.e., human communication). Other words that are also often misused are: leader and journalist.

Yeah, pretty much. There seems to be a misconception in some circles that pseudoscientific ideas, religious faith, etc are outright despised by 'scientists' because they somehow go against some naturalistic order or something rather than because the evidence for them isn't there/happens to be weak. It's basically the basis for the old 'flat Earth atheist' trope, the idea that fictional scientists will turn up their n…

> If we suddenly saw religious style miracles occur in plain sight with no other possible explanation, the idea of a miracle would become a scientific concept that we'd try and study.

I disagree. Even if miracles happened and were observed, I think they'd likely still be outside the realm of scientific study and would therefore remain unscientific concepts. Science is built around the assumptions that mechanistic and predictable processes are being studied, but an actual religious miracle would be preformed by an transcendent agent who is likely aware of all attempts to predict its actions and can react to and influence those predictions, breaking the assumptions. The only secular discipline that could really study them would probably be history.

However, if you replace miracles with Harry Potter-style magic, I think your point stands.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with that, but would extend it to hypothetical other sentient beings, artificial or otherwise. With every species having potentially distinct moral frameworks that can have different answer to that question. You could say I'm a species-level moral relativist. :) Still, answering "what is actually Good" is not a trivial question because self-contradicting moral intuitions are too easily confused. Her…

I think we may be talking past each other. You can certainly use the scientific method to help you maximize utility, but it can’t tell you that maximizing utility is Good.

What I'm trying to say is that "Good" is what your moral intuitions (however you got them) tell you is Good. There is no goodness without a conscious being it would apply to. There is no way to consider something as Good if all your nature screams at you that this is evil. (I will leave Christian concept of Good God running Hell for eternity out of the picture for now).

A separate claim is that those intuitions are a result of long evolution and are a bunch of heuristics that tend to increase gene survival and propagation, plus a bunch of accidental not too detrimental for that purpose rules. Most likely not an absolute optimum set too.

A meteor smashing into a mountain on the moon is neither good nor bad.

What's good for a human and what's good for an octopus and what's good for our upcoming robot overlords can be completely different.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#95
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much. There seems to be a misconception in some circles that pseudoscientific ideas, religious faith, etc are outright despised by 'scientists' because they somehow go against some naturalistic order or something rather than because the evidence for them isn't there/happens to be weak. It's basically the basis for the old 'flat Earth atheist' trope, the idea that fictional scientists will turn up their n…

> If we suddenly saw religious style miracles occur in plain sight with no other possible explanation, the idea of a miracle would become a scientific concept that we'd try and study. I disagree. Even if miracles happened and were observed, I think they'd likely still be outside the realm of scientific study and would therefore remain unscientific concepts. Science is built around the assumptions that mechanistic and…

Hmm, good point. I guess miracles if they happened would be an interesting kind of beast, since they obviously wouldn't follow any sort of standard logic. That might definitely make them difficult to study, especially compared to other, more logical (but non existent) possibilities like the undead or Harry Potter style magic.

But I guess scientists would still accept they're a thing that exists if they did provably happen, even if there was no logical framework for explaining or studying it.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#96
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we suddenly saw religious style miracles occur in plain sight with no other possible explanation, the idea of a miracle would become a scientific concept that we'd try and study. I disagree. Even if miracles happened and were observed, I think they'd likely still be outside the realm of scientific study and would therefore remain unscientific concepts. Science is built around the assumptions that mechanistic and…

Hmm, good point. I guess miracles if they happened would be an interesting kind of beast, since they obviously wouldn't follow any sort of standard logic. That might definitely make them difficult to study, especially compared to other, more logical (but non existent) possibilities like the undead or Harry Potter style magic. But I guess scientists would still accept they're a thing that exists if they did provably h…

> But I guess scientists would still accept they're a thing that exists if they did provably happen, even if there was no logical framework for explaining or studying it.

I think they could, but not as scientists wearing their science-hats. They'd only be able to accept the miracles as individuals with personal experience or as people who trust the historical record.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#97

> There are major aspects of our life that remain unexplained, leaving professional scientists with the choice of whether to accept the general notion that they will also be resolved one day by the scientific method. ... This ambiguous state of affairs explains why some of the best scientists are religious. This to me reflects huge deficit in the author's thinking and perception. It also reflects a common sentiment a…

Unless you're trying to play the "not true Scotsman" card for the historical actions of religious figures, as well as the understanding of religion, then I would argue that the trick and quite modern one is the proposition that science and religion are different domains. It has only been until recently that religion lose enough ground, that they might be considered different domains.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good point. Adding to it, there are things in life which are ineffable. This means they are (by definition), impossible to model or explain with words. Thus, these things will forever evade scientific scrutiny as science cannot deal with the ineffable. Despite the above, we (and science) are continuously trying to reduce the immensity, inconmensurability and ineffability of reality into something that can easily…

> Adding to it, there are things in life which are ineffable. This means they are (by definition), impossible to model or explain with words. Thus, these things will forever evade scientific scrutiny as science cannot deal with the ineffable. The concept of 'Ineffable things', is a very poetic way of describing something but it does not reflect reality. If a word exists to refer to something it is because is not inef…

What you are saying is that because we have a map then we know the terrain.

A description (in this case words), is not the actual thing.

Using your example, we can spend days describing love and write millions of pages about it, but that is a very different thing than actually experiencing or feeling love.

It is the experience that is ineffable, not the description of the experience.

Additionally, we each assign meaning to our own experiences and language, even if we choose to agree with others about it. Funnily enough, there are people that have assigned meaning of love to the number 9 (you can lookup the song Love Potion No. 9, or Love Numerology).

Accepting something as ineffable doesn't mean that you give up on it, it just means that it doesn't have a universal "true" meaning for everyone and that it cannot be fully understood unless it is experienced.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#99
post #77

The discipline of science (and its sibling mathematics) has been one of the great achievements of human civilization. It has been so astonishingly successful, we can’t even fathom there being any phenomena beyond its reach, given enough time and enough foundational understanding. Because I like to stretch my mind in uncomfortable directions, I often wonder: is there something else? Something that can lead us to Truth…

It seems likely that such truths (which are neither mathematical nor scientific) exist, as can be seen from the effort that philosophers of science have put in studying the so-called "demarcation problem." If they could have defined science as "not math" and left it at that, they surely would have. They have some very good ideas in this direction (Popper's falsifiability) but the debate rages on. In particular, it's very hard to answer the question, are there things which are not science, but still true or at least useful?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_problem

Some examples:

1. C. S. Pierce believed he had discovered a third form of thought, distinct from deduction (math and logic) and induction (empirical science). He called it "abduction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

2. Certain aspects of philosophy seem to be outside what we consider math or science, such as ethics. The "is-ought" problem is currently open; we basically have no way of giving force to normative statements (you ought/should do a thing, it is right/good/just to do a thing). Kant's categorical imperative is probably the closest approach, but it's hard to accept it uncritically (or seriously entertain Kant's resulting system of ethics, which for example imply you should not lie even to save a life.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

3. Semantics (study of meaning) also may not be neither math (which can avoid all semantics and adopt a formalist POV) or science (which can also be described as a formal attempt to predict empirical observations, i.e. operationalism and instrumentalism.) For example, the logical positivists attempted to define a verifiability criterion of meaning, but this can easily be show to fail its own test, leaving the question open.

Re: A scientist must go where the evidence leads

#100
post #50

> There are major aspects of our life that remain unexplained, leaving professional scientists with the choice of whether to accept the general notion that they will also be resolved one day by the scientific method. ... This ambiguous state of affairs explains why some of the best scientists are religious. This to me reflects huge deficit in the author's thinking and perception. It also reflects a common sentiment a…

>Their domains are mutually exclusive and yet the conversation continues stupidly (on both sides) as if they were. This may be true in principle, but your whole argument falls apart because religion does make assertions about the real physical world. They (taking here the example of Christianity) they postulate miracles, divine intervention, life after death, an unlikely and unsubstantiated cosmology, not to mention…

> religion does make assertions about the real physical world

Even though religion makes those assertions, that doesn't mean the physical world is now in its domain. Religion is just making false assertions about subjects outside its domain, regardless of what their believers believe. I believe this is what the parent means by:

> What a Religious person derives from their beliefs has nothing -- zero, nothing -- to do with the measurable/observable particle interactions of the material world

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