A Walk in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#181

Post by loyukfai » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

throwaway1997 wrote: post #105

woutr_be wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's over 7 million people in HK, at the largest protest, they estimated around 2 million took part, so not even half. During most protests, that number is significantly lower.

2 million turned up. Now how many support the protests and were unable to/didn't want to turn up to protests? Many people are very old, work on Sundays, wouldn't be allowed by their parents (people typically live with their parents into their thirties here). You can probably double that figure.

One also needs to consider that the HK people are traditionally apolitical. So the 2m figure really sent a huge shockwave across the board.

And only then, the government started to realise that they have screwed up badly.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#182

Post by dan-robertson » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

whoevercares wrote: post #165

roca wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own interests. Democracy and freedom are flourishing in Taiwan. They are flourishing in South Korea (who aren't Chinese but whose traditions are no more democratic than China's). They're doing OK in Japan. "The Chinese point of view" is an ambiguous term that the CCP us…

I saw the many citations of Taiwan, Korea and many other small country (even Japan) as the example that democracy can work as is for China. IMO the scale and population is drastically different. Couple things make it complicated: 1) over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understa…

Regarding 1, many western countries developed their democratic system when their populations were largely agrarian. In those cases however many of the people with money or political power (who were the first to be given a vote) were also spread throughout the countryside and that is probably not the case in China.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#183

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #86

thinkingemote wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Face" is also tied into shame and handling feelings of shame. Shame is a major emotion (or idea) and one which is often internalised. Shame is the negative feeling about yourself. "The definition of shame is a discrete, basic emotion, described as a moral or social emotion that drives people to hide or deny their wrongdoings" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame Much of western street violence is about shame at it's…

The main negative driver in asian societies is shame, while the main one in "western" societies is guilt. And yes, both emotions are often at the root of street violence.

What would you say is the difference? Isn't guilt just a form of shame that is consciously acknowledged?

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#184

Post by theklub » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

spectramax wrote: post #61

TASMebWdhWc9NeA wrote: post #51

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals. X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any kind of investigative journalism especially against…

Norway just happens to have a ton of oil money and a tiny population, whenever they get mentioned as an example for the rest of the world I can't help but laugh.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#185

Post by loyukfai » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #33

avip wrote: post #27

Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.

They seem to have spared private property, but windows were broken, city infrastructure was damaged (e.g. LegCo, police stations), and police were beaten up. It's like in all countries. Some protests/protesters are peaceful, some are not.

The edgy protesters are specifically targetting the government, the police who is acting on behalf of the government, and sometimes things associated with the CCP/PRC (e.g. PRC flag).

Some of their actions have caused trouble for others, but in general, they are not interested in pure destruction.

Of course there are exception cases, I'm speaking of the situation generally.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#186

Post by bart_spoon » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

rhinovshippo wrote: post #176

3131s wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea that "saving face" is uniquely central to Asian cultures is complete nonsense. It's a common metaphor in Asian languages, that's it -- the desire to avoid embarrassment is an absolutely universal human trait.

"face" is the word one uses when one wants to put a negative spin on it. It, along with "kowtow", are very much dog-whistles for a certain crowd. Have you ever laughed at a joke even though you don't find it funny, because the teller made a great effort telling it and you shudders to think how you would feel if your interlocutor exhibited completely no reaction? If the answer is yes, the concept is as much operative…

You are correct that "face" isn't an idea that is unique to Asia. But on the other hand, if you don't think there is an extra emphasis on it in certain Asian cultures (can't speak for China, but I have lots of experience with Japan), you are simply wrong. The lengths Japanese people go to avoid bucking a trend, or staying within the cultural boundaries is, on average, much further than most Western cultures would.

For what its worth, I don't think this is a good or a bad thing. While it can certainly have its problems, I also think its a key ingredient in why many macro-scale societal issues in Japan (mega cities, public transportation, crime, etc.) simply seem to work better, more efficiently, and with less friction than Western counterparts (particularly the US).

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#187

Post by roboys » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

Am I the only person that believes international crime will see a significant drop if China controls HK?

I'm actually glad this glorified money laundering/financial crime haven is being shut down. The sooner China gets extradition powers, the sooner we can close the criminal enterprises operating in/through HK for the past 1-2 centuries.

Running drugs/drug money through HK is something that has been going on for a very long time (thanks to the UK/US/etc), time to put an end to it.

Lot of big money manipulating kids that can't see through the haze neo-colonialism.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#188

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

TASMebWdhWc9NeA wrote: post #51

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

I think the western society is objectively further advanced than the Chinese one. Not surprising since China is a country in development and most other countries have gone through similar phases. So it should not be taken as a accusation. This conflict aside, I wouldn't see them on the same level.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#189

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #156

sammorrowdrums wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all conflict is highly localised at any given moment. I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international forces were live firing mere miles away. Even soldiers cannot sustain a con…

People went out to picnic on the hills to watch one of the first battles of the Civil War in Virginia.

It didn't work out all that great for them.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#190

Post by mback00 » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

dade_ wrote: post #126

The Hong Kong government/China have been completely inept at managing the housing situation and it is nearly at a breaking point. It is refreshing to read an article on the current situation that raises the issue. 'One of the deeper causes of the present crisis of legitimacy is the housing crisis in Hong Kong, another way in which the government has failed the people it is meant to represent, and you can see it in th…

But this is how the Hong Kong government has traditionally made its money. Hong Kong’s tax structure is real-estate sales. This is why Hong Kong is all about huge sky rise developments of ultra-small apartments... and because the island is all hills, it is also why so many developments are built literally on a cliff.

Hong Kong is a geographically difficult place... building new plots is expensive - and the government makes it more expensive.