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A Walk in Hong Kong

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Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#51

Post by TASMebWdhWc9NeA »

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests.

Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way is the right way, or that the western culture is the one to accept. They just say that they are different, and that of course a shift in culture is difficult for Hong Kongers. They think it will all pan out somehow: Hong Kong has to accept that they are Chinese now, and accept all the consequences that come with that.

I understand that the viewpoint of hn, a very USA oriented site, is different, and that most people here think that the libery of HK people should not be taken away from them because democracy is the only way, but I think the chinese point of view should be heard as well, and should be taken into consideration to get a better understanding of everything that is happening.

My personal opinion on this is that China should just let them keep their autonomy, and let them be Hong Kong: a state by it's own with it's own rules and laws.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#52

Post by azernik »

lawrenceyan wrote: post #30
spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in cert…

This has also been observed about Southern (i.e. Southeastern US) culture - it has an emphasis on "honor" and "face" that is much-reduced in other American regional cultures. These probably generally go back to historical social structures where reputation was important on a day-to-day level. (e.g. where personal relations took over some economic or legal functions that would be handled through more distant institutions in e.g. Northeastern US culture).

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#53

Post by spyckie2 »

spyckie2 wrote: post #19

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

I don't want to change my original post, so I'll add to it here:

When you're on the streets with the protests, it feels extremely primeval. The micro-scale interactions of the protest movement is like looking into a microscope at microorganisms, blobs of life that just kind of move around and sometimes eat others but most of the time just float there.

It's a decentralized, rather polite mob. Angry, yes. Scary, sometimes. But otherwise, just a lot of yelling, a lot of "tactics" - like retreat, advance, wall off here, go here, go there, run. It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist, and I think the author captures that feeling very, very well.

The police also have that same feeling on a micro-level, not much thought or control, just an instinctual reaction or set of rules to follow.

One party existing to express concerns and vent anger. The other party existing to restrain and disperse.

Of course, on the real level, the two parties have deeply rooted goals and feelings. The police want the protestors to stop protesting. The political party wants the people to be absorbed into China. And the protestors want to preserve the unique individuality of HK and to allow it to grow and thrive.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#54

Post by woutr_be »

prawn wrote: post #8

One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one st…

I live in HK, and frankly, it's quite strange. I remember having a drink with a friend, while watching the violence unfold live on TV, it felt quite surreal.

I live close to Victoria Park, where most of the large demonstrations have started from, I've seen them pass right down my street as well. All of this happening while I just go on with my life.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#55

Post by sammorrowdrums »

prawn wrote: post #8

One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one st…

I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all conflict is highly localised at any given moment.

I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international forces were live firing mere miles away.

Even soldiers cannot sustain a continuous battle. Wars are a collection of separate battles with a shared end goal.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#56

Post by hrktb »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #46
hrktb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally it is not what western media think as “news”. It is long, ultra detailed, first person, and doesn’t cover the central point covered by other news outlets. If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc. We had that with french protests, standard news covering was cut so it was very digestible and n…

> If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc. The word "extradition", a key piece of information about current HK-China relations, does not appear in this blog. Let's not pretend it is deeper than something produced by a reputable newspaper. A newspaper can put out long form like this, or just straight news.…

yes, this piece would not stand as a news article on its own (it's also not its goal).

I think the reaction we have to it is that it is willing to present aspects that might not resonate with most people, nor have any specific signification or symbolism attached to it.

Even a long form news piece would need to justify why some bits is in it, what role it plays in the piece, and get scrapped if it fails to justify itself. The advantage of this piece is it has none of these restrictions.

In its way it's a very good complement to cut and dry news.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#58

Post by spyckie2 »

azernik wrote: post #52
lawrenceyan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in cert…

This has also been observed about Southern (i.e. Southeastern US) culture - it has an emphasis on "honor" and "face" that is much-reduced in other American regional cultures. These probably generally go back to historical social structures where reputation was important on a day-to-day level. (e.g. where personal relations took over some economic or legal functions that would be handled through more distant instituti…

I'm inclined to believe it is driven by the economic situation and how power is consolidated. Where power and prestige creates strong economic advantages is where this kind of behavior wins out. And where innovation speed creates strong economic advantages is where you find more cooperative and negotiative cultures.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#59

Post by hrktb »

woutr_be wrote: post #48
hrktb wrote: post #32

> The MTR is the one technology the Hong Kong protests could not do without, an autonomous fiefdom that the police mostly stay out of. It is neutral territory This is a godsend. During Paris protest earlier this year the gov would just shut down public transports for about 5~10 km around and block main accesses so people couldn’t massively join the protests. At least the mainland gov. didn’t get to touch that I guess…

Some stations have been shutdown several times in the past few weeks, I'm not sure if it was on the request of the police, or the MTR just decided to skip stations. However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Last week the HK police decided to fire tear gas within a station as well.

> However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations.

Yes, and it's legitimate from a business point of view.

But then, if the police wanted to shut down these stations, causing violences/attacks would also be a way to push MTR's hand (they've already hired mobs to stir the protests, trashing stations for strategic advantage wouldn't be out of character)

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#60

Post by nathanyukai »

avip wrote: post #27

Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.

In the Chinese media the violent part of the protest is what they mostly talks about, although I do believe most protestors are peaceful. Funny enough most western media don't talk about that at all, despite that they broke into the legislative assembley and beaten people from mainland China, and HK police of course. Isn't media great these days
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