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A Walk in Hong Kong

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Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#61

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals.

X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any kind of investigative journalism especially against the government, your social score goes down if you buy a particular book, you cannot sue the government or even think about it, punishment can include selling your organs for arbitrary reasons, the list goes on and on.

If X were an impoverished country like Somalia, the tune would change and most people would condemn such a society. I want to do so fearlessly but sometimes people see it as an attack against the Chinese people. I’ve been to China and have spent many months there, made lifelong relations, etc. I have no room for any concession or bargain for the argument that authoritarian rule has benefits - yes it does but at aforementioned costs. China has risen above due to government’s iron grip over every aspect of the country. It is doing so at a cost. Fundamentals don’t change even if one sees the strategy panning out. An eagle in the world of doves can kill a lot of doves and have short term evolutionary imbalance. But soon, the marginal cost of turning into an eagle is so small so there are new eagles popping up in the population all of a sudden. This balance oscillates in the short term, but evolutionary pressure returns it back to an equilibrium. Fundamentals of eagle and dove dynamics don’t change even though the state of this system shows “success”.

I’m in the position to criticize any authoritarian regimes in the strongest way possible - be it China or any other country, it doesn’t matter. I don’t want to die seeing this world turn into a power grab for a few with a consequence of a dystopian society. I wish the next superpower would be a country such as Norway or Sweden, it would set such a utopian example for the world to move into the right direction.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#62
post #27

Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.

Across the sea from Hong Kong, the Japanese take demonstrations a step further: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXjd7GkHKfU

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#63

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own interests. Democracy and freedom are flourishing in Taiwan. They are flourishing in South Korea (who aren't Chinese but whose traditions are no more democratic than China's). They're doing OK in Japan.

"The Chinese point of view" is an ambiguous term that the CCP uses to its advantage. In fact it is the Chinese Communist Party's point of view, which they have managed to indoctrinate into most Chinese citizens via their control of all Chinese media. Where Chinese people have escaped CCP influence, they tend to have quite a different point of view.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#64

HK has come quite far, but if they can't stage peaceful protests without fear of reprisal from Beijing, then the brightest will still flee to the US. This blog post's point seems to be, he had culture shock when he moved to the US as a child, and experienced it again when visiting HK because he feels it is more advanced than the US. > Not everyone lives in a luxury hotel, man! I get it. But my eyes are like saucers.…

I believe quite clear that they can stage peaceful protests. Peaceful protests have never been prevented in Hongkong.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#65
post #47

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The pe…

> when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution This sounds a lot like politics in the UK and USA to me ...

No one is talking about politics, this is about two people unable to resolve a conflict.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#66

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way…

> Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture.

Funny that authoritarianism, corruption, etc. is being excused as "Chinese cultural differences". This stuff ain't new, folks.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc. The word "extradition", a key piece of information about current HK-China relations, does not appear in this blog. Let's not pretend it is deeper than something produced by a reputable newspaper. A newspaper can put out long form like this, or just straight news.…

yes, this piece would not stand as a news article on its own (it's also not its goal). I think the reaction we have to it is that it is willing to present aspects that might not resonate with most people, nor have any specific signification or symbolism attached to it. Even a long form news piece would need to justify why some bits is in it, what role it plays in the piece, and get scrapped if it fails to justify its…

HK is protesting because they don't support a proposed law that would allow China to extradite HK citizens to China.

Very simple to add that and I wonder why such a long blog post does not mention it.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#68

HK has come quite far, but if they can't stage peaceful protests without fear of reprisal from Beijing, then the brightest will still flee to the US. This blog post's point seems to be, he had culture shock when he moved to the US as a child, and experienced it again when visiting HK because he feels it is more advanced than the US. > Not everyone lives in a luxury hotel, man! I get it. But my eyes are like saucers.…

I believe quite clear that they can stage peaceful protests. Peaceful protests have never been prevented in Hongkong.

Perhaps you are unaware, China has produced videos of military units gathering near the border of HK. China is making very visible threats to peace.

edit next reply below..

"Let's not pretend" - are you copying my language from another comment? weird or a coincidence.

Anyway we don't see eye to eye on this. In my view, Beijing's obstinance is causing all kinds of trouble in HK, for both the HK police and the general population.

This could all be resolved swiftly by simply retracting the extradition bill. The longer the disagreement continues, the more likely more people in China have a chance to hear both sides of the story. I expect that is a scarier prospect for Beijing than they would like to admit.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#69
post #8

One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one st…

I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all conflict is highly localised at any given moment. I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international forces were live firing mere miles away. Even soldiers cannot sustain a con…

> were live firing mere miles away

More like metres away.

Re: A Walk in Hong Kong

#70
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some stations have been shutdown several times in the past few weeks, I'm not sure if it was on the request of the police, or the MTR just decided to skip stations. However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Last week the HK police decided to fire tear gas within a station as well.

> However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Yes, and it's legitimate from a business point of view. But then, if the police wanted to shut down these stations, causing violences/attacks would also be a way to push MTR's hand (they've already hired mobs to stir the protests, trashing stations for strategic advantage wouldn't be out o…

I believe the police have also requested the MTR to add additional train services, so that people could get out of affected areas.

There's been a lot of push back on the police operating inside the MTR stations, especially after what happened last time. It's one thing to try and push people to leave the area, another thing to fire tear gas rounds at the entrances of MTR stations.

The protestors have already shown that they can cripple the MTR network within a couple of hours, I doubt the MTR want to be on the wrong side.

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