I feel like im talking to the borg • Hacker News Board

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#171

Post by GonzaloQuero » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #123

jpindar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about the tree-like conversations. It would be great if there were a site or a an app that could display them AS trees.

Some of the FC Ambassador accounts may not be genuine. E.g. I'm fairly sure Slavoj Žižek isn't working in an Amazon warehouse. Then again - we're all in this gig economy thing, so maybe anything is possible.

There are some people memeing with the names, but you can recognise them because their account names don't follow the same pattern as the shill accounts.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#172

Post by velcrovan » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

leftyted wrote: post #83

scrozart wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also doubt that the warehouse jobs are bad jobs I agree that these folks are probably real people, but you must have missed the last several month's worth of very public information about the conditions in their warehouses. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-describe-pe... https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/3/11/18260472/amazon-ware... https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-drivers-warehouse-conditions...…

I find it difficult to distinguish between people with legitimate complaints and people who are ideologically opposed to amazon (BigCo) existing at all.

Which of these people has said or demonstrated that they’re ideologically opposed to Amazon existing at all?

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#173

Post by asark » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #158

asark wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern capitalist societies—marked by a universalization of money-based social relations, a consistently large and system-wide class of workers who must work for wages, and a capitalist class which owns the means of production [....] Emphasis mine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

I expected another definition in the context of that comment, but fine. According to that, it's anyone who owns the means to production, and is thus the most open class possible. Rather strange to say they're dividing and conquering when anyone can join.

Owning a few shares isn't really what's meant. If your way of life still depends on earning wages for the bulk of your adult life, that's usually not what people mean by the term "capitalist" (or "capitalist class"), since it'd be a pretty useless definition.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#174

Post by Circuits » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

I am trying to imagine a world where one of these workers replies:

"Oh yes actually, working conditions here are terrible. In fact, I hate my job and so does everyone else."

What happens to that employee? Back in the day I worked for Fedex in a warehouse organizing mail and I did it for like $9/hr and tbh, even at $15/hr I wouldn't have been able to stay for more than a year or so. The conditions weren't terrible but the job itself is.

I can't speak for Amazon workers but if it's anything like what I was doing then I understand why they are frustrated. Then again, it's sort of like a plumber complaining about the smell. If you lift and organize boxes for a living and you do that 8 hours a day 5 days a week then eventually those paper cuts are going to start to feel like serrated knives.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#175

Post by paideic » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

qwsxyh wrote: post #133

duxup wrote: post #125

I feel like this is twitter in a nutshell, and that goes for everyone involved. The very first response is "eally like? cause your workers are liars?" There we go, now the entire conversation is everything or nothing, you're either with them or against them. Then it's off into personal attacks and arguments about followers and etc. Nobody is talking to each other in any of that. They're just posting for everyone else…

The important thing is you've found a way to feel superior to everyone. Ten points to you for being so immensely smart.

This is a parroted response used every time someone attempts to meta-analyze the method that allows discourse to propagate. Someone going "ha, you just want to feel superior," is pretty ironic, isn't it?

Examining and critizicing communication mediums is an important and valuable thing to do, especially with respect to the internet. Do you truly believe that sound-bite length tweets that focus more on trying "burn" the opposing side instead of making cogent points are the best way of having rational discussions? If not, then what the OP mentioned is important - the format of Twitter just _doesn't_ lend itself to good discussions as much as it does to fanning flames and coming up with good quips. It promotes the worst parts of discourse, and viewing everything that comes out of it through that lens isn't an attempt to feel superior - it's a _necessary_ thing to keep in mind. In order to fully appreciate a message, you have to fully understand its medium. And Twitter is a shitty medium.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#176

Post by velcrovan » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

solotronics wrote: post #124

I want to play the devils advocate here. If these jobs were gotten rid of with automation would these workers be better or worse off? I know the essential argument is that the job should pay more and also not be automated away but due to the competitive nature of capitalism there is a tipping point where it becomes cheaper to have robots do the work. Should all these jobs be replaced by robots? What would society loo…

Are people better off since we outlawed child labor?

I mean, don't child workers help poor people get more money?

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#177

Post by bwoj » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

theDoug wrote: post #59

leftyted wrote: post #44

I doubt these are bots. One of them says: > I don't get compensated per tweet. I get paid $15/hr whether I am answering tweets or out on the floor stowing. I do this 2 days a week and 2 days a week I stow. While I think it's weird that Amazon is doing this, I also doubt that the warehouse jobs are bad jobs. I've done manual labor for less than $15/hr and I'd much rather have a job like that than, say, a job in a rest…

Poor 20-something grandfather Rafael also identifies as a nana and as a middle-aged woman. https://mobile.twitter.com/TheKenChilds/status/1161847717397...

That's compelling evidence that these aren't FC center workers but somebody running them all as a social media campaign.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#178

Post by BeetleB » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #76

inanutshellus wrote: post #8

... imagine this the other way. Imagine that "@rulesObeyer" is the one with the agenda. Imagine RO is paid by a competitor to spread misinformation and "stir the pot", then re-read the thread. Suddenly RO seems incapable of reason or adapting in the face of clear evidence against its assertions. It makes for a fun read. (Similarly, "anyone condemning this comment or defending @rulesObeyer must just be @rulesObeyer in…

Not seeing it. RO is speaking like a real person with pretty reasonable arguments; the others feel like exactly what she accuses them of being: paid shills.

>are you a robot, did they make a bunch of ai to lie for them instead of helping real workers

Talking to a real human this way is not reasonable. Nor is it an argument.

>how much are you compensated per tweet like this

This is like the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" When the assumption of malintent/guilt is there from the start, you're setting yourself up for a very unreasonable conversation.

>so they’re paying you to tweet that you like your job, which is tweeting about liking your job...lol yes!! you are paid to say that you like your job. it’s your job!

This is very likely false, and she is actively ignoring people who are saying it is false.

I have to agree with GP. While I found the ambassador tweets to be, well, weird, her tweets are the ones that stood out to me as very unreasonable. She does not seem at all interested in anything that contradicts her world view.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#179

Post by qwsxyh » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

hos234 wrote: post #169

duxup wrote: post #125

I feel like this is twitter in a nutshell, and that goes for everyone involved. The very first response is "eally like? cause your workers are liars?" There we go, now the entire conversation is everything or nothing, you're either with them or against them. Then it's off into personal attacks and arguments about followers and etc. Nobody is talking to each other in any of that. They're just posting for everyone else…

It is Pavlov's dog experiment, where instead of the bell, you have a like/retweet Count conditioning and reinforcing behavior. Natural human interaction has never had a number placed next to every thought and utterance. The numbers have fucked up the way people think and behave.

It is Pavlov's dog experiment, where instead of the bell, you have an upvote Count conditioning and reinforcing behavior. Natural human interaction has never had a number placed next to every thought and utterance.

The numbers have fucked up the way people think and behave.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#180

Post by ken » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #70

georgehotelling wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That jumped out at me too. My reading was the implication that if there was a union, you would lose that. It seems like a common anti-union talking point, from what I've seen at Walmart and Whole Foods.

In my experience being in a union (against my preferences) it’s not implied, but a fact. Unions have sued their own members for speaking with managers about grievances.

I work under a union (though I'm not a member yet). Obviously every union is different, and every contract is different, but this sounds completely insane to me.

My first point of contact is always my team lead. If they ask me to do something unsafe, for example, I just say so. If it's not resolved there, I'd go to my job steward. The job steward exists to be the on-site worker advocate. I've spoken to my job steward about an issue maybe once ever.

I can't imagine how not having an advocate would ever be beneficial for me. It's simply an alternate path of escalation for issues which doesn't end at management saying "shut up and do the job".

The simple answer to not wanting to get sued for speaking with your manager is to have your union not write a #@&!*ing contract that allows workers to get sued for speaking with their managers. (Duh?) I'm sure that clause has existed somewhere, and I'm sure they had a reason for it, but my experience is that 99.99% of the time it's just like any other job, but with better pay and working conditions. If your manager is reasonable and listens to your grievances, then the day-to-day is literally no different than non-represented work.

Sounds like pure FUD to me.