India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access • Hacker News Board

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#161

Post by eklavya » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:16 AM UTC

iamshs wrote: post #143

Arun2009 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. Abrogation of Kashmir's special status has been a top agenda of the BJP for the past few decades. They are pretty big on "national unity", and they see the special status for Kashmir as going against this principle. They want Kashmir fully i…

You know what else has been a top agenda for BJP? Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan. That is, single language, single religion, single nation. BJP is a Hindu Nationalist party, and just because it is in their manifesto doesn’t mean it should have been fulfilled. The question to ask is, why is in their manifesto when there are other regions in India with similar laws? It is in their manifesto because Kashmir is a Muslim majorit…

“Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan”, this takes Hindu as identity like American and not a religion.

“When there are other regions ...”, no, laws passed by the parliament were applicable everywhere except in Kashmir. So you had gems like child marriage not outlawed.

It’s lazy and biased journalism to just label them Hindu nationalists and portray them like some sort of evil overlords. India for centuries has been the most inclusive place in the world. Let’s not try and paint the majority as some kind of a clan of idiot oppressors.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#162

Post by unmole » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:17 AM UTC

tech_dreamer wrote: post #145

selimthegrim wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look forward to the no doubt imminent abrogation of the Articles 371 that deal with the other integral parts of India such as Mizoram, Manipur (how's that AFSPA going over there btw), Nagaland, etc because all integral parts of India should be treated the same, right? If Kashmir is atoot ang why are you treating it differently like it has cancer?

A democratically elected Indian government has exercised it's mandate to update a temporary constitutional provision (370 and 35A and NOT 371 as mentioned above - these were granted 70 years ago) I'm not sure why foreign governments and media are getting fixated over it. Any armed struggle or insurgency movement against India will be crushed regardless. Also no other state or union territory has/had provisions for ha…

After denying the people of J&K the chance to democratically elect a government, a constitutionally dubious Presidential order was used to fundamentally alter the state. As an Indian, I find it concerning that our media is not fixated on this and instead is toeing the government line.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#163

Post by whenchamenia » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:19 AM UTC

thanks1banks2 wrote: post #133

statguy wrote: post #2

I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. However, just like their ill-fated demonetization policy from 2016, they haven't given a whole lot of thought to what happens the day after. How long will they keep these restrictions? How far are they prepared to go if there is a mass uprisin…

India is a secular state. We treat all religions with equal respect. This is in the constitution. This issue is an internal matter following due process within our parliamentary framework.

Lol. Lets just say it thus; In the usa we have freedom of religion, but a minority of religions have a majority of special rights. The same is true for India.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#164

Post by Arun2009 » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:19 AM UTC

throwaway99033 wrote: post #39

Until recently, I had a strongly positive impression of India, as an outsider: rapidly modernizing, forward thinking and tolerant. Indians I meet in real life certainly tend to reinforce that position. However, I stumbled upon Indian Twitter during the election campaign, and I have been shocked by the vicious hatred and massive troll armies, that exceed anything I’ve noticed elsewhere. I imagine that WhatsApp is wors…

> I have been shocked by the vicious hatred and massive troll armies, that exceed anything I’ve noticed elsewhere

Mutual distrust and animosity was always there underneath the surface. The internet is just making it a lot more visible to outsiders.

Don't forget that India itself was born during violent and widespread Hindu-Muslim clashes that displaced some 10+ million people from their homelands and resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of others. The past history of India has been quite violent if you think about it. We have had several insurgencies fueled by ethnic hatred and real or imagined grievances. The 80s and the 90s were very violent years. We had the Gujarat riots (or pogrom, depending on whom you ask) as late as 2002.

The freewheeling, anonymous nature of the internet just makes ideas fueling hatred to spread fast. Now it is easier for skilled rhetoricians to infect others. Everyone is getting radicalized - Hindus, Muslims, various caste and ethnic groups, you name it.

All this is not even counting any bots and propaganda armies on the internet working overtime to project a certain narrative. I fear that things might get worse, much worse, before they get better.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#165

Post by eklavya » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:20 AM UTC

iamshs wrote: post #11

statguy wrote: post #2

I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. However, just like their ill-fated demonetization policy from 2016, they haven't given a whole lot of thought to what happens the day after. How long will they keep these restrictions? How far are they prepared to go if there is a mass uprisin…

Absolute repeat of what happened in 1984 against Sikhs in Punjab. Play by Play. This is just the start of worse for Kashmir unfortunately. The young ones are in for a brutal ride especially. And no one will listen, as they are not Upper caste Hindus.

How are sikhs worse in Punjab now? The 1984 riots were perpetrated by the same people who are opposing this move.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#166

Post by wtmt » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:21 AM UTC

kobiguru wrote: post #54

owaislone wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark. To prevent what exactly? Political dissent? Why can't people in Kashmir right now talk to each other over phone? Why can't they call their loved ones outside the region? Why isn't anyone else allowed to contact them? Why are lawyers, professors and activists being jailed? Why are some people not being allowed to leave the country? Why can't Ind…

Okay, let's say they lift the ban here is how things will transpire. First, Pakistan's ISPR would start a massive disinformation campaign aided by the separatist who lost all their influence with the present government but has a great following among the Kashmiri Youth. Then there would immense violence with many dead while the "leaders" and there loved ones stay in a five-star hotel in Delhi. To prevent a loss of li…

On what basis do you imagine that any resistance or disinformation campaign by Pakistan and other interests would die down soon enough within days or weeks and make the central government allow bringing back Internet and mobile connectivity? It seems like it can never come back unless the concentration of armed forces increases manifold and punishments doled out as lessons for anything that looks like an infringement.

To me it seems like the situation cannot go back to how it was a month ago for a long time (several months, at the minimum).

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#167

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:23 AM UTC

amalag wrote: post #117

owaislone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immense violence started in Kashmir back in 1989 when India pulled off something like this the last time. It started dying out by 1995-96 as India adopted a more democratic and less militaristic approach to Kashmir (Vajpayee's Kashmiriyat, Insaniyat, Jamburiyat) right until the current Government came in and started going back to the militaristic approach by quelling protests by brute-force. This move is not going to…

This is BS. Pakistani jihadis are not overcome with any kind words. The isolation of Kashmir was the problem and the government has taken the solution that the majority of the country agrees with. The only people complaining are English language media who Modi has never cared about.

You fight ideas with ideas.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#168

Post by throwaway99033 » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:27 AM UTC

vakataka wrote: post #144

throwaway99033 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a reasonable point, and I do try to keep some perspective. The number of “likes” and retweets for the hateful posts does seem to scale for India’s massive population. India also has a long history of deadly “communal violence”, something that doesn’t really happen in other democracies. If questioning whether it’s wise for companies like Twitter and WhatsApp to allow incitement for violence to exist in such an…

There is a reason for proliferation of hate on Twitter and that is the skewed form of secularism that the Indian state has followed all these years. Those who have lived in India know that most of the time the state is lenient towards minorities even when they commit crimes. Even history has been whitewashed to portray invaders as benign rulers so as to not offend minorities. In some ways the Indian Natinal Congress…

Thanks for that forthright answer, and it does seem to match the themes I’ve seen on Twitter. I think to many people, the idea that hatred and violent threats could be seen as a valid response to grievances, even if justified, is beyond the pale, especially in a democracy. As I said, I had a very different understanding of India prior to being exposed to it on Twitter. I appreciate your honesty.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#169

Post by eklavya » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:29 AM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #137

amalag wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hinduism is secular. Where have historically persecuted people of the world gone? To Hindu India. Indian Hindus are why Zorastrian people still exists as a religion. They had to flee Iran and Islamic domination hundreds of years ago. Hindu India has its share of casteism, which is a real problem. That I can agree with.

As far as Indian Constitution written by Ambedkar goes, I believe you. I am not sure RSS agrees on that basis.

That can be rectified by actually trying to read and understand about it. Don’t fall for the narrative.

Re: India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access

#170

Post by tech_dreamer » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 3:33 AM UTC

owaislone wrote: post #92

tech_dreamer wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kashmir is a part of India and India is not an occupational force. Also India doesn't want another Syria/Afganistan/Pakistan/Sudan/Libya/Iraq happening next to it.

I'm sure people of Kashmir would shout this at the top of their lungs if the communication blockade was lifted.

I'm sure, people of Gilgit/Baltistan, Balochistan and Pashtonistan will have similar opinions. Also, please don't forget how thankful Bangladesis are.