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Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

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Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#201

Post by autoexec »

root_axis wrote: post #172

YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content. Google demonetizes videos in order to be more appealing to advertisers , ultimately the problem these creators have is that advertisers are not willing to pay for their content. YouTube only makes money when the content creator does, so naturally they'd be happy to monetize anything they could.

> YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content.

Youtube doesn't create content. They utilize content provided to google for free by creators to drive traffic to their website. Google monetizes videos in order to be more appealing to content creators. The problem these creators have is that advertisers, corporations, competitors, and copyright trolls are easily able to game google's automated systems to get channels demonetized and content censored. It doesn't matter to youtube if a channel is demonetized because it still drives traffic to their website, it still provides google with a trove of user data (both from the person visiting youtube and the content creator's own content and usage of the site) and they will happily autoplay/suggest videos full of ads to get visitors away from the demonetized channels.

aggressive demonetization/censoring is far less expensive for google than properly moderating content, and it lets them show they are "doing something" which keeps advertisers happy and the copyright cartels at bay.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#202

Post by root_axis »

stcredzero wrote: post #91
40acres wrote: post #72

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Personally, I would not be surprised to see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act challenged on this notion and it as the basis for other challenges. Internet providers just serve bits, any effort to "manipulate" those bits based on who is…

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Sure, and when someone puts weights on both sides of a scale, operating it correctly, they are still "manipulating" the scale. That's not what people get mad about. It's when someone puts their thumb on the scale, because they want it to read a cer…

> It's not fine when it gets to the level of pushing or squashing a political agenda

Why not? What's wrong with pushing a political agenda?

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#203

Post by cgio »

root_axis wrote: post #198
sakekasi wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point taken on that definition, but as tech companies create new markets (e.g. YouTube, Uber, etc.) I think the definition of employee will evolve as well

Perhaps. I'm curious how you might envision a future definition of "employee" that would cause YouTube creators to be considered employees of YouTube.

They perform work, their work is reviewed and subjected to standards and they expect return. Both work and compensation are subject to contractual terms.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#204

Post by cheese4242 »

untog wrote: post #154
solotronics wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty obvious that things like search results are manipulated to fit an agenda. Search Google Images for "white american family" and "black american family" and compare the results. You can replace "black american family" with indian or any other group and the results are similar. There are many interracial couples under "white american family" and none under "black american family". The only way I can explain…

Taken from a Reddit thread: "If you're talking about this picture, it is tagged as "white" because of the background colour." As usual, Occam's Razor applies here. Just imagine for a second that Google sent out a specific instruction to employees that they wanted to alter the algorithm so that a search for "white american family" returns mixed-race couples. Imagine the number of employees that would see a code commit…

Not related to OP's specific example, but very recently a Google employee came forward and blew the whistle on Google intentionally biasing their algorithms to sway public opinion : https://www.theblaze.com/newsletters/wtf-msm-google-whistleb...

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#205

Post by plicense »

autoexec wrote: post #201
root_axis wrote: post #172

YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content. Google demonetizes videos in order to be more appealing to advertisers , ultimately the problem these creators have is that advertisers are not willing to pay for their content. YouTube only makes money when the content creator does, so naturally they'd be happy to monetize anything they could.

> YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content. Youtube doesn't create content. They utilize content provided to google for free by creators to drive traffic to their website. Google monetizes videos in order to be more appealing to content creators. The problem these creators have is that advertisers, corporations, competitors, and copyright…

> Youtube doesn't create content. They utilize content provided to google for free by creators to drive traffic to their website.

This is a popular sentiment, but its not "for free". There's cost involved in storing, transcoding and service videos to millions/billions of users and in the development of those technologies.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#206

Post by [deleted] »

luckylion wrote: post #137
buboard wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is likely just making the decision Google should not be making the decision, advertisers should

Meh, that's like saying you shouldn't be in charge of business decisions, your customers should be. Advertisers can react to Google's decisions by taking their business elsewhere, but it's up to Google to decide what does and does not make them money and to not engage in what doesn't.

[deleted]

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#207

Post by root_axis »

cgio wrote: post #203
root_axis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. I'm curious how you might envision a future definition of "employee" that would cause YouTube creators to be considered employees of YouTube.

They perform work, their work is reviewed and subjected to standards and they expect return. Both work and compensation are subject to contractual terms.

> They perform work

At their own behest, not through any formal agreement or obligation from YouTube - YouTube only enters the picture after the producer decides to upload their content to YouTube and they don't have to do that.

> Their work is reviewed and subjected to standards and they expect return

Google offers creators a place to upload their videos for free, it does not offer any guarantees regarding returns.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#208

Post by nordsieck »

knotsies wrote: post #192
nordsieck wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can youtubers go on strike and take the content down for a limited time? In order for that to be effective, a strike needs to remove enough capability from the other party to materially affect them. In this case, with so many videos online, I'd bet creators would need to get perhaps 95%-99% of recent videos taken down. They won't get anywhere close. Right out of the gate, news and music won't join in the strike. Al…

I feel like a very strong effect could be had if popular creators move their content to other providers. While they might not be able to take down a huge percentage of all recent videos on YouTube, they could redirect the attention of enough users to have a very strong impact on YouTube's ad revenue. Say someone is a die-hard fan of Pewdiepie--he's the reason that user opens YouTube on a daily basis. This user watche…

> I feel like a very strong effect could be had if popular creators move their content to other providers.

That could work. There's no exclusivity clauses for video hosts, though, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't already be on those other platforms unless it isn't worth the work. I'm forced to conclude that youtube's competitors have few enough viewers and/or pay so poorly that it would require a truly organized and massive move to make that work.

All I can say is: good luck. I won't be holding my breath.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#209

Post by munificent »

patrioticaction wrote: post #143
pwinnski wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match the original statement, and doesn't reflect reality. People leave YouTube all the time, and crowds don't tend to follow them anywhere. They just watch different YouTubers who fill a similar niche. It's as if the cloud you were really enjoying blew away, but there were plenty of new clouds, so you didn't get into a car to follow the old ones.

You are arguing that there is anything resembling a perfect market for YouTube video content. Talk about a departure from reality.

No, I'm certainly not. YouTube isn't anything like a conventional market:

* Consumers do not pay money for each transaction of content they consume. Instead, they pay with their attention. But that doesn't work like a currency because their goal is not to minimize the attention they spend. It's burning a hole in their pocket and they want to give their time to YouTube.

* YouTube spends next to no money on each unit of product they deliver. After they show a user a video, they still have it.

So looking at this as any kind of supply and demand situation is going to just completely muddle the economics. The supply is nearly infinite and the "demand" is hard to even define.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#210

Post by root_axis »

egypturnash wrote: post #200
root_axis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. I'm curious how you might envision a future definition of "employee" that would cause YouTube creators to be considered employees of YouTube.

I feel like there is a line to be drawn somewhere around the points where you start referring to yourself as a "YouTuber" and where other people regularly describe you as one. More broadly, this same line may exist for any site/company somewhere around the point where whatever awkward construction for "person who regularly posts on site X" or "person who regularly does gig work for company X" starts getting applied t…

> I feel like there is a line to be drawn somewhere around the points where you start referring to yourself as a "YouTuber" and where other people regularly describe you as one.

This seems pretty subjective, difficult to measure, and impractical to enforce.

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