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Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

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Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#151

Post by imbored »

pwinnski wrote: post #109
solotronics wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty obvious that things like search results are manipulated to fit an agenda. Search Google Images for "white american family" and "black american family" and compare the results. You can replace "black american family" with indian or any other group and the results are similar. There are many interracial couples under "white american family" and none under "black american family". The only way I can explain…

That's the only way you can explain this? Really? This is a popular exercise on the internet, but there are any number of explanations for this that are satisfied entirely by understanding how any search index works.

It's a white supremacist talking point. Don't bother.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#152

Post by untog »

khawkins wrote: post #95
40acres wrote: post #72

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Personally, I would not be surprised to see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act challenged on this notion and it as the basis for other challenges. Internet providers just serve bits, any effort to "manipulate" those bits based on who is…

Here's an excellent video breaking down with extremely compelling data how the "trending" tab is very heavily manipulated in favor of mainstream media sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDqBeXJ8Zx8 What's interesting is that extreme bias in the US is not seen in Canada. Though I'm not sure it's stated in the video, I think that Youtube has been propping up MSM sources so that they can make themselves seem more…

I think the reality is a lot less interesting than the conspiracy theory: mainstream media sources are far less likely to post dangerous, controversial or radicalising content. Given that YouTube has historically had a problem with that (and still does in countries like Brazil[1]) it's not so much a suspicious response as a very predictable business response.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/world/americas/youtube-br...

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#154

Post by untog »

solotronics wrote: post #82
40acres wrote: post #72

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Personally, I would not be surprised to see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act challenged on this notion and it as the basis for other challenges. Internet providers just serve bits, any effort to "manipulate" those bits based on who is…

It is pretty obvious that things like search results are manipulated to fit an agenda. Search Google Images for "white american family" and "black american family" and compare the results. You can replace "black american family" with indian or any other group and the results are similar. There are many interracial couples under "white american family" and none under "black american family". The only way I can explain…

Taken from a Reddit thread:

"If you're talking about this picture, it is tagged as "white" because of the background colour."

As usual, Occam's Razor applies here. Just imagine for a second that Google sent out a specific instruction to employees that they wanted to alter the algorithm so that a search for "white american family" returns mixed-race couples. Imagine the number of employees that would see a code commit like that, or otherwise be involved in the decision. Do you really think that not a single person would have blown the whistle?

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#155

Post by fromthestart »

solotronics wrote: post #82
40acres wrote: post #72

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Personally, I would not be surprised to see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act challenged on this notion and it as the basis for other challenges. Internet providers just serve bits, any effort to "manipulate" those bits based on who is…

It is pretty obvious that things like search results are manipulated to fit an agenda. Search Google Images for "white american family" and "black american family" and compare the results. You can replace "black american family" with indian or any other group and the results are similar. There are many interracial couples under "white american family" and none under "black american family". The only way I can explain…

Project veritas leaked a candid, hidden camera chat with Google's Head of Responsible Innovation, Jen Gennai, where, essentially, she and an engineer shamelessly describe using ML to manipulate search results to better align them with the reality that they would like society to adopt, i.e., a strongly left leaning agenda. Among other topics, she specifically mentioned that Google is working against "another 2016 situation" (regarding the election of Trump). The clips in this video stand on their own-there is no context which mitigates the fact that Google is injecting political bias into its search results. In an interview with a whistleblower in the same video[1], claims of blacklisted autocomplete terms are also implied to be part of search curation.

Given Google's status as the defacto gateway to information for the majority of the first world, this kind of meddling with queries and query results should be cause for concern, regardless of one's political leaning. Ironically, the video was taken down from YouTube.

Note: I don't appreciate the bias of the following source either, but the content is damning on its own.

1.https://www.projectveritas.com/2019/06/24/insider-blows-whis...

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#156

Post by fucking_tragedy »

anon1m0us wrote: post #144
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAG-AFTRA has weighed in on this issue, both to the press[1] and on their website[2]. From their site: > Do you create your own content on YouTube or other social media platforms? > If a brand reaches out to promote their product (paid or product trade) on your platform, that is a commercial and SAG-AFTRA can have your back. > SAG-AFTRA covers advertisements on all platforms. Get fair compensation, access to health i…

So what you're saying is there already is a union for content creators, they just need to join it. That seems like a way better approach. All content creators on the internet should join the same union -- preferably one that already exists -- rather than recreate a wheel that will water down their message.

Competition is a good thing, perhaps other unions can meet the needs of content creators better than this one.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#157

Post by mrec »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #119
mrec wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The internet has turned to garbage. The ad-supported internet has turned to garbage. The academic and hobbyist internet is fine, and not that much different from the old days. The governmental internet depends a lot on where you are, but .gov.uk is really rather good, and vastly better at what it does than snailmail and Post Offices were in the old days.

> The academic and hobbyist internet is fine, and not that much different from the old days. YouTube, and dreams of monetization, have infected the hobbyist internet too. I am active in some niche travel hobbies. It used to be that people in this subculture would write detailed text blogs with tips about various routes and definitions. Now, people think video is the default medium for sharing one’s information, and s…

> The decline of text blogging is also partly Google’s fault, in that lots of hobbyist blogs are now excluded from search results even if you try to search for the exact terms you know are found in the blog entry.

Interesting; I wasn't aware of that. Do you know whether alternative search engines like DDG have the same problem?

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#158

Post by cma »

anon1m0us wrote: post #9

What they should do is collectively take their content somewhere else. As an aside, I'm seeing the same pattern at Amazon. People thought they were opening a business on amazon selling retail. Then amazon started selling the profitable products themselves, storing the products themselves, ... basically doing more and more of the work and taking more control and taking money from the people who helped them become powe…

> What they should do is collectively take their content somewhere else.

Everyone would have to coordinate it at the same time, and a massive capital outlay would be needed to create a service everyone could switch to at once. If it is done piecemeal Youtube's strong lock-in though things like driving traffic through recommendations on other videos etc. would win out and punish the early switchers too much.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#159

Post by ijpoijpoihpiuoh »

programmarchy wrote: post #64

Check out Joerg Sprave’s video [1] on this with him and the IG Metall lawyers. Joerg is the slingshot channel YouTuber who is helping lead the charge on this. In the video, they give a good breakdown on their demands and their strategy. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oZZ5Kouj_hQ

The false self employment concept seems fishy to me. I doubt they will succeed on that front.

Perhaps they will be able to get somewhere with GDPR, but, supposing that they are able to get the courts to classify the judgments about uploaded videos as personal data (a stretch), YouTube will just begin disclosing that information (or stop retaining it). If all YouTube retains is a bit that says how many raters rated a piece of content as "teen" or above, what recourse does the GDPR offer? Sure, you can have that information, but that doesn't mean that YouTube is required to disclose the mechanisms by which they made the determinations.

Their last option (collective action, like strikes or what have you) is just wishful thinking. Most YouTube watchers do not care that a guy who is getting paid shittons of money to make videos about slingshots is making slightly less shittons than he otherwise would.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#160

Post by AgentME »

stcredzero wrote: post #91
40acres wrote: post #72

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Personally, I would not be surprised to see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act challenged on this notion and it as the basis for other challenges. Internet providers just serve bits, any effort to "manipulate" those bits based on who is…

Fundamentally I think the problem is that these platforms are not neutral, when YouTube's algorithm hoists your video to the front page they are "manipulating" the system. Sure, and when someone puts weights on both sides of a scale, operating it correctly, they are still "manipulating" the scale. That's not what people get mad about. It's when someone puts their thumb on the scale, because they want it to read a cer…

>It's not going to be easy to draw the line, but in the case of pushing politics, it has clearly gone too far.

In which way? I've seen a lot of arguments that YouTube pushes people into alt-right and ethnonationalist content way too easily.

I don't think there's an objective way to choose what videos to promote. Obviously they're going to try to come up with some right way to put the weights, and then if they subjectively think that results in the wrong thing, they're going to tweak the weights. Even if there is a weighting that objectively results in more views, it's a value judgment to choose to use that weighting. It could be that prioritizing outrage-bait content gets more views, but I wouldn't call prioritizing that neutral or beneficial.

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