Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#301

Post by catacombs » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

Jgrubb wrote: post #88

dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

Never underestimate the persuasive power of a regime murdering several thousand people in plain sight. I remember thinking the same thing about the Arab Spring in 2009.

China is a behemoth. Even if they storm Hong Kong with soldiers and beat the protesters bloody, many leaders won't stand up to China, mainly because Pooh Bear is a bully and too many countries rely on China financially.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#302

Post by _ptgt » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #71

adventured wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation It's a rather remarkable difference at this point. The US economy was 16 times larger than China at the end of 1989. Japan was nine times larger. China was only about 45% larger than South Korea back then. China's military spending today is equal to at least a third the size of its economy in 1989 inflation adjusted. There's a reason why there are no major protes…

I can understand Middle Eastern and muslim majority governments taking that view. I don't understand the ordinary Muslim believer that is prepared to go out and protest against America or Europe thinking that way. Why should they care? After all the reasons you give for treading carefully against China all apply to the US and the west just as much. Take Pakistan. It gets billions in military and economic aid from the…

People en masse are generally not well-informed and in large part irrational.

The West has had decades of support for Israel (whose existence has been detested by most of the ME since pre-inception) and the decades-long struggle for ME countries to obtain ownership of their oil resources while white guys were in the country getting rich off it created has created a powerful and lasting image embedded into the culture (not least aided by lots of opportunistic ME politicians drumming up anti-West sentiment for decades in the same manner Western ones drum up anti-immigrant sentiment).

China is too new, even if they're actually a more appropriate target for wrongs committed in 2018-2019.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#303

Post by BlueonMount » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

bouncycastle wrote: post #295

BlueonMount wrote: post #291

I’m an ordinary HK resident, software engineer, living in Kowloon and work in HK island. I see the protesters breaking laws, damaging properties, obstructing traffic, causing the entire society to grind to halt. Their actions are not unlike mobs and they disrupt social order almost everywhere. I don’t know under what circumstances mainland military can get involved, but I hope when they do, law and order can be resto…

So what are you going to do, when one day you wake up and find that wikipedia.org is blocked, as many other sites, when Hong Kong comes under the Great Firewall of China? It will be definitely too late to protest about it then.

I will likely protest if HK Internet freedom is eroded, but to a much less extent than today when my real-life freedom is eroded. On that Monday when protesters flooded the subway, I was unable to get to work on time. I had to work late, and learned my lesson to return home by taxi, only to find that roads near my home were blockaded by protesters. I dare not express anti-protester views when I’m among group of radical protesters. I walked with them once, several weeks ago, when the protests just started and I thought they might have some valid points. I found most of them holding extremely biased and unrealistic views about HK or China, and can’t be reasoned with. I never walked with them again.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#304

Post by jammygit » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

52-6F-62 wrote: post #254

Tharkun wrote: post #4

Sigh. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of the Tiananmen square massacre. I've not seen any nations speak out about the HK protests. Unlike, say, when many expressed support for the Arab Spring.

Trudeau has spoken a little on the subject: "We are calling for peace, for order, for dialogue … we certainly call on China to be very careful and very respectful in how it deals with people who have legitimate concerns in Hong Kong," Trudeau told a televised news conference in Toronto. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-concerned-hong-kong...

Trudeau has mismanaged a few things, but I’m glad to hear him speaking up here.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#305

Post by BlueonMount » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

chewz wrote: post #242

StreamBright wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit far fetched. Hongkong is part of China, it has been part of it for a long time. UK rule was a blip in that and it was a 99 years lease anyways. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong

Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to drop a single rocket on Beijing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

This is not true. HK total population is less than 8 million. Even you count half of them as young, that’s 4 million. Most of these young people have meaningful things to do, such as school or work. The ones that are on the street are typically not nice at all.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#306

Post by thenewwazoo » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

chewz wrote: post #265

StreamBright wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure where the 8 millions is from, the number of protesters are much less. Would you want to start a world war over HK?

War no, confrontation yes.

Pick up your rifle, then, soldier.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#307

Post by bouncycastle » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

BlueonMount wrote: post #303

bouncycastle wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are you going to do, when one day you wake up and find that wikipedia.org is blocked, as many other sites, when Hong Kong comes under the Great Firewall of China? It will be definitely too late to protest about it then.

I will likely protest if HK Internet freedom is eroded, but to a much less extent than today when my real-life freedom is eroded. On that Monday when protesters flooded the subway, I was unable to get to work on time. I had to work late, and learned my lesson to return home by taxi, only to find that roads near my home were blockaded by protesters. I dare not express anti-protester views when I’m among group of radic…

Again, when internet freedom gets eroded, it will be too late to protest. On the street or even online. Authorities will have control over everything, the internet firewall will be just the icing on the cake.

Also, curious, what are some of the biases and unrealistic views?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#308

Post by BlueonMount » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

pimmen wrote: post #286

rolltiide wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution of Hong Kong known as the "basic law" allows for Beijing's military action. Corresponding mainland Chinese law allows for military action in Hong Kong when things seem unmanageable for the city's government. Defacing state property and paralyzing the airport seem to be Exhibit A and B? There isn't any framework where this would be seen as illegal or illegitimate. Even under a foreign power's "nationa…

> There isn't any framework where this would be seen as illegal or illegitimate. Doing it just to effectively end "One China, two systems" would absolutely be breaking a teaty. Which is illegal.

HK’s security is fundamentally derived from Chinese military power. Mainland soldiers are regularly stationed in HK. This is part of what One China means.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#309

Post by dragonsh » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

reissbaker wrote: post #240

dragonsh wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole comment mentions China. I believe this is another one of those fake news campaign running across Hong Kong as mentioned in news. HN is not fake news medium but is being made to generate fake news with conflated facts. Been on HN since it's birth, not fake accounts like yours or people downvoting critical comments with facts. Hopefully some moderator on HN reviews these comments for facts not conflated facts…

In case anyone is confused by this shill, the protests in HK aren't about HK wanting a closer relationship with the mainland. Quite the opposite in fact. Parent commenter is trying to spread propaganda while claiming "fake news" on the other side. Source: friends who live in Hong Kong and are eyewitnesses at the protests.

No one doubt this protest is about losing relevance of Hong Kong resulting in house, education and health problems.

I am the one saying the original title and Twitter is fake news. Indeed it is conflating the facts to foment protest.

If there is a protest in New York and national guards are having something in Philadelphia, anyone can conflate the facts to make it national guards summoned to end violent protest in NY.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#310

Post by salawat » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #228

namelosw wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has a different culture. One reason that western people having protesting culture because of historically authoritarians are less powerful and less cruel than the eastern ones. Take the 'nine familial exterminations'[0] as an example. It will most likely become a totally different cyberpunk society, with modern cities and massive surveillance coexist, instead of being another US.

> One reason that western people having protesting culture because of historically authoritarians are less powerful and less cruel than the eastern ones. I think western people are just more complacent, and so protests are viewed as fundamentally non threatening by authority figures. In China, however, the people are much less complacent and so authority figures fear more widespread uprising. In the US, we are taught…

This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Western culture.

You make progress in the West by winning over your naysayers by memetic warfare, and ideally by grassroots sentiment/political engineering.

In recent decades, there have been issues with the system as a whole that have made it difficult for the system to self-correct. Namely, the obsession with never revisiting laws on the books to simplify the act of legislating, the dismantling of the legislative branch as the ultimate source of law through delegation to the Executive branch and dissolution of vital apparatuses like the Office of Technological Assessment, and overreliance on an overloaded Judiciary as a relief valve for legislation largely driven by donor/special interest organizations.

Resistance in the United States, and the West in general was never intended to be "buy the vote" but rather the end result of pushes to modify public sentiment through bottom up pressure, with laws being passed at the lowest level possible such that each State was free to run itself as it saw fit with minimal undue influence from other State, with a Federal body of jurisdiction to mediate cross-State issues.

At no point was the U.S. Government ever expected or desired to be able to control the populace. That was specifically avoided and straight up poisoned through various Constitutional Amendments, as well as quite elegantly rejected in the Declaration of Independence; which while not a document with legal force, remains an elegant expression that I still believe it safe to say expresses the essence of American culture. The Government is there to serve the populace. Not suppress, dominate, or terrorize them.

Any contest of wills in the States is fundamentally a difference of opinion between people; not a challenge to the superiority of the State. Whether in current times the establishment has started to waiver from the rails is anyone's guess, but currently there is a generational changing of the guard as it were going on.

Hope this is enlightening or at least provides food for thought.