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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#261
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that theory has been wrong. The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them and even now western democracy is on the decline. Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change — that democracy and freedom — is…

Freedom and democracy aren't inevitable, but occasional revolutions and civil wars are inevitable in China. They've had quite a few and there's a good chance we'll see another one in our lifetimes. The next revolution probably won't produce a liberal democracy.

This sounds like how some regions are “due” for another catastrophic earthquake. Unfortunately, the modern notion of when a place is “due” for a revolution doesn’t take account of the sophisticated totalitarian surveillance technology that China has been building for the past 15 years.

You may not intend to give this impression, but the sense I get from casual observers of China (I count myself in this group) is that if we just let China do its China thing eventually it will implode and some different state will emerge, probably slightly better. As an American, this seems like The Way of Things because we are taught that freedom triumphs, even if it takes a long time, even if it comes in fits and starts.

It seems that this historical bias has created a blind spot for the possibility that things will continue to get very much worse for the Chinese people — who will go their own way entirely, as a group influenced by a completely different cultural background, with entirely different notions of what good government is.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#262
Everybody, now is the time to email your local Chinese embassy. Carrie Lam, the top HK politician. Michael Tien and Ronnie Wong, leading pro-establishment politicians.

Let them know dialogue & political solutions are needed, violence is not acceptable, and that PEOPLE ARE WATCHING AND CARE.

Your voice can make a difference to the political calculus. But time is very short. You must act now.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in 1688 Quakers in America protested against slavery. 1773: Boston Tea Party. Temperance in the 1800's. Women's Vote in 1913. But they entered the public awareness in 1963 with the March on Washington, and haven't let up since.

It's a bit sad, but I believe "protests" have lost their meaning. All of what you described were meaningful events, but it these days some one is always protesting something. For instance, there are "women's marches" every year turning out tons of people in a society where equal rights are constitutionally enshrined. That probably doesn't merit such an event. My concern is that if, Heaven forbid, there is ever again…

I imagine that to most people living though those protests at the time they were viewed as "someone is always protesting something." Don't underestimate how the narrative telling of history changes your perception of how something went down compared to what your own observations are right now.

Survivorship bias ensures that history only remembers the protests that were meaningful, making it seem like protests were historically more effective and more meaningful.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aah, crap, good point. And Trump will probably not do anything in both cases. Putin neither, and the EU can't go in themselves.

Uh, if the EU wanted to, it could absolutely go in. The UK has the most valid reason for intervening since it's their treaty that's being violated by a Chinese invasion. EU countries have 2+ million military personnel combined, hundreds of naval assets, thousands of aircraft, strong mutual defense military alliances, etc.

Europe has no army or military capacity. You have UK/France with some military capability but rest of Europe has in essence no armed forces, their tiny militaries are mostly only used to help during natural disasters or with humanitarian efforts. Europe can't even handle issues in its own backyard without US.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#265
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to drop a single rocket on Beijing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

I am not sure where the 8 millions is from, the number of protesters are much less. Would you want to start a world war over HK?

War no, confrontation yes.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#266
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit far fetched. Hongkong is part of China, it has been part of it for a long time. UK rule was a blip in that and it was a 99 years lease anyways. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong

Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to drop a single rocket on Beijing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

The constitution of Hong Kong known as the "basic law" allows for Beijing's military action. Corresponding mainland Chinese law allows for military action in Hong Kong when things seem unmanageable for the city's government. Defacing state property and paralyzing the airport seem to be Exhibit A and B?

There isn't any framework where this would be seen as illegal or illegitimate.

Even under a foreign power's "national security interests", Hong Kong is pretty much an administrative convenience to asian markets than an outlier, as China knows how to run markets these days and has little qualms about capitalist functions, so it is very unlikely that major market disruptions would happen from even the most extreme scenarios imagined here. As such "rockets on Beijing" let alone any foreign diplomatic recognition of these internal issues would be very counterproductive.

In this case for whats productive, use this analogy: think of it more like a theorist in Ohio wondering if DC is causing a false flag attempt during a period of unrest in a US state or dependent territory. That theorist is never suggesting that a neighboring or powerful country intervene, while still being passionate about the idea that the unrest is being propelled in order to justify state control. Might be true, might not, doesn't matter, but still the only outlet to express discontent than suggesting a third party drop rockets on the capital!

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#267
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean when you say "honorary Europe", because I am certain it does not mean what I expect it to mean: A fundamentally fair and well-functioning society with very few if any governmental killings and high stability within it's borders.

You should read about Spain

Are you comparing Spain with China? Who are you reading comfortably from SF?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#269
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History proves this. Only modern democracies don't have the stomach for it.

Oh! They have but not to their own people.

Eventually the us gave up butchering people in Vietnam.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pictures we're seeing is of cops beating, rubber-shooting and tear-gassing protesters in tight spaces without obvious provocation.

Here are videos of protestors beating cops and other innocent bystanders, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd1nW7Oa3mc

The video looks consistent with that I've heard reported elsewhere: Protestors are not attacking people, only symbols of the Chinese government. The violence that has been perpetrated has been directed towards the protestors, e.g. the knife attack on a protestor, the fireworks shot at protestors (seen in the video) and various excesses of the police.
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