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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#241

Post by noio »

big_chungus wrote: post #217
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in 1688 Quakers in America protested against slavery. 1773: Boston Tea Party. Temperance in the 1800's. Women's Vote in 1913. But they entered the public awareness in 1963 with the March on Washington, and haven't let up since.

It's a bit sad, but I believe "protests" have lost their meaning. All of what you described were meaningful events, but it these days some one is always protesting something. For instance, there are "women's marches" every year turning out tons of people in a society where equal rights are constitutionally enshrined. That probably doesn't merit such an event. My concern is that if, Heaven forbid, there is ever again…

Are you talking about the US? I though the Equal Rights Amendment was not yet ratified, and that equal rights are thus not actually 'constitutionally enshrined'?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#242

Post by chewz »

StreamBright wrote: post #232
chewz wrote: post #231

West wasn't ready to die for Danzig in 1939 and isn't ready to die for Hong-Kong in 2019. The result could be similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F

This is a bit far fetched. Hongkong is part of China, it has been part of it for a long time. UK rule was a blip in that and it was a 99 years lease anyways. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong

Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to drop a single rocket on Beijing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#243

Post by atupis »

intopieces wrote: post #226
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that theory has been wrong. The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them and even now western democracy is on the decline. Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change — that democracy and freedom — is…

Thing is that China is nearing point where it has to let creative destruction happen to grow more and it is very hard to achieve under current model.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#244

Post by ByDefinition »

chewz wrote: post #231

West wasn't ready to die for Danzig in 1939 and isn't ready to die for Hong-Kong in 2019. The result could be similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F

The result must be the same. There's good reason to wait until a certain line gets crossed.

There's no rational reason to enter another country and intervene against political repression, when there are no outward effects that introduce tangible problems for non-citizens of the country.

Without invasions, without belligerence, internal repression is not motivation to cross any lines.

As with Iraq, a stupid war just kicks up dust, ruins millions of people, cuts short hundreds of thousands of lives, and pisses off the world.

Sorry. Nothing happens if it stays inside the borders.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#245

Post by philipov »

atupis wrote: post #243
intopieces wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that theory has been wrong. The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them and even now western democracy is on the decline. Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change — that democracy and freedom — is…

Thing is that China is nearing point where it has to let creative destruction happen to grow more and it is very hard to achieve under current model.

Citation please

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#246

Post by StreamBright »

krageon wrote: post #151
gurkendoktor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China has nukes. Absolutely nothing will happen China has shown (again) in their treatment of Hong Kong that they don't care about past agreements. The least that anyone can do, even in the presence of nukes, is to get their business out of China, and that is already happening to some degree. And of course be welcoming to people who choose to emigrate from Hong Kong.

China was always going to annex Hong Kong eventually, this is something almost everyone with any interest in this particular situation has known for many years. Spinning that particular situation in a reason to boycott a country (and replace it with what? India isn't exactly a paragon of virtue and neither is the US, and let us never speak of the stain that is Russia) is a strange mental place to go to.

> China was always going to annex Hong Kong eventually,

You cannot annex your own territory.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#248

Post by nradov »

intopieces wrote: post #226
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that theory has been wrong. The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them and even now western democracy is on the decline. Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change — that democracy and freedom — is…

Freedom and democracy aren't inevitable, but occasional revolutions and civil wars are inevitable in China. They've had quite a few and there's a good chance we'll see another one in our lifetimes. The next revolution probably won't produce a liberal democracy.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#249

Post by intopieces »

atupis wrote: post #243
intopieces wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that theory has been wrong. The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them and even now western democracy is on the decline. Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change — that democracy and freedom — is…

Thing is that China is nearing point where it has to let creative destruction happen to grow more and it is very hard to achieve under current model.

Could you elaborate more on what this means? What is creative destruction? Why is it necessary for China’s growth, and why is now the point for it?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#250

Post by StreamBright »

chewz wrote: post #242
StreamBright wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit far fetched. Hongkong is part of China, it has been part of it for a long time. UK rule was a blip in that and it was a 99 years lease anyways. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong

Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to drop a single rocket on Beijing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

I am not sure where the 8 millions is from, the number of protesters are much less. Would you want to start a world war over HK?
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