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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#161

Post by empath75 »

hjanssen wrote: post #16

This is really bad and definitely triggers memorys of the Tiananmen massacre. I'm very interested how the rest of the world is going to react to these developments considering the position of China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation. I recognized that the reaction of e.g. Germany was considerably weaker to the HK protests than e.g. the Arab Spring protests, but I guess we just have to wait and see. Edit:…

I honestly don’t think that China will do anything like that again. Because of how their economy is so intertwined with the rest of the world, they can’t afford another brutal crackdown.

I am sure they will go in, but I’m also sure they have more sophisticated crowd control methods available to them.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#162

Post by tombh »

wtdata wrote: post #144
tombh wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that free, democratic societies are better. I am in fact British, so I should know. Listen, I'm genuinely interested in how you and others justify the destiny of Hong Kong. So we're in agreement that democracy is better, and for example there's a very tenuous argument that the violence the West used in Iraq was necessitated by an existing autocratic regime. However the violence used by the UK to gain HK was u…

> It's unfortunate, but HK didn't come across democracy by its own struggle in the way most countries did. Such foundations are just inherently unstable, how can it possibly be any other way? Democracy in HK society seems actually very stable and ingrained into HK societiy mind. So much, that a territory that is 0.5% of the population of mainland China, is willing to stand up to the biggest army in the world to defen…

I know, that's why I said it's unfortunate. But that is not an argument for HK's right to democracy, for one simple reason: before the British invaded, the population of mainland China were also willing to stand up to the biggest army in the world. It is the exact same situation, just the other way around.

Neither is fair. Britain didn't have a right to HK and now China doesn't have a right to HK. They are both as bad as each other. You can't support one without implicitly supporting the other. Like I said, the world is a globalised now. We are all both Chinese and Western, the difference is superficial.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#163

Post by rdtsc »

chroem- wrote: post #40

We should have applied the same policy of containment to China, that was used against the Soviet Union. But instead we let our greed get in the way, and now we've created an (arguably) evil superpower.

We didn’t because initially we capitalized on the USSR and China’s split and took advantage of it politically. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type deal...

Then at some point we realized China with its large labor pool, low wages and no effective safety legislation was a good place to build all our junk for cheap.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#164

Post by dinkudunk »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #115
alexmlamb2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just the brainwashing that you've received growing up in the west. I know because I grew up in the US, but I've learned more about other countries and realized that things aren't really like this.

Accusing people of being brainwashed isn’t a strong argument.

The argument wasn't that they were brainwashed. The argument was that OP is an ideologue with western-centrist ideals that need further justification.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#165

Post by dragonsh »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #130
dragonsh wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are fake news to foment Hong Kong protestors by conflating facts. I hope such fake news do not become part of HN. You are absolutely right Hong Kong cannot even provide proper shelter or health system or good education to more than 40% of its people, who live in a space smaller than prison cell. All these protests are due to this simmering discontent. I do not think living in a prison cell size apartment and th…

If what you say is true, about simmering discontent in HK due to conditions worse than in China. Why don't the HK people just move to China? Are there any rules against that? If not, why are they staying in HK?

Let me clear one thing people in Hong Kong are in China. Hong Kong is China with few exceptions of basic law.

For your question moving between cities anywhere is hard. Moreover most population in Hong Kong is not that well educated to get better paying jobs as locals have better university education and good English knowledge in tier 1 cities.

People live in Hong Kong as they don't have a choice or skills or resources. Most Hong Kong people with skills or resources are already either in China or other parts of the world.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#166

Post by rdtsc »

heraclius wrote: post #50

The reason to send in the PLA would be to increase the level of violence, but there’s no reason to risk the backlash of sending them in when the HK police can do the job too—even if the Central People’s Government were to suddenly decide that live ammunition is needed, they would still be able to rely on the HK police. The deployment of troops is therefore almost certainly, as was noted in the SCMP, a statement of in…

They think the HK police might not follow orders and shoot their own neighbors, friends and family.

An army division from a different region, properly instructed (brainwashed) can do “wonders” in terms of viciousness and brutally.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#167

Post by levosmetalo »

adventured wrote: post #94
simonh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand Middle Eastern and muslim majority governments taking that view. I don't understand the ordinary Muslim believer that is prepared to go out and protest against America or Europe thinking that way. Why should they care? After all the reasons you give for treading carefully against China all apply to the US and the west just as much. Take Pakistan. It gets billions in military and economic aid from the…

> After all the reasons you give for treading carefully against China all apply to the US and the west just as much. That's not true. The US is susceptible to humiliation and reputation erosion when it comes to human rights. China, largely, is not. The Muslim prisoners - Abu Ghraib - being tortured wearing black bags, the infamous photos that were leaked (and sparked large protests across the Middle East), was an emb…

> The US went to war, in Europe's backyard, to stop a genocide of Muslims with the Kosovo War.

Bullshit. The US went to Kosovo war to show Europe they are bunch of incompetents, and to show others it doesn’t pay of to be Russian ally, like Serbia. There was no genocide on muslims, there was only a fight of regular troops against separatist terrorists, which were supported by various international Islam terrorist groups.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#168

Post by chadcmulligan »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #111

Whoever is behind the current protests in Hong Kong. (possibly US possibly China, perhaps it has changed). is forcing China to act in a brutal manner. They cannot have this form of anarchy and disturbance. Actually, the US would have acted harshly already if it was on US soil. I can't think of any protesters invading congress and not getting shot at. Stopping traffic at an airport? Yeah that is not going to happen fo…

> The protesters took it way too far.

Why do you say this? HK is still a nominally free society and protest is their right

> China must act. Any nation would act at this point.

that's not a given, and why must they act against peaceful protest? Lining up para-military tanks against a civilian population is not something that most nations would do. It's clearly designed to intimidate.

> Perhaps still China can find an alternative approach. I hope so.

The alternative approach is pretty obvious to any democratic nation

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#169

Post by loyukfai »

mymythisisthis wrote: post #95
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

China is where the USA was in the 1950s; lots of industrial growth but lots of pollutions, a population happy about all the new wealth and not willing to protest.

When did protest start to become common in the states?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#170

Post by rruieews »

inflatableDodo wrote: post #113
loyukfai wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xi is very much a dictator, but he also needs money to maintain his dictatorship. HK for all its faults and bads is still quite important to the Chinese economy. That's why we haven't become Xinjiang, IMO.

To pick a single data point, I'd assume that someone who bans all Winnie The Pooh pictures across a country after comparisons are made with themselves, has very probably gone insane and become utterly drunk on power. Do not expect Xi to do something sane, especially if he feels insulted. I think HK's best hope is for something else big to distract him. Unfortunately, I think it is very likely right now that he will i…

> assume that someone who bans all Winnie The Pooh pictures across a country

I'm not sure if this will change your opinion, but this isn't true.

I asked my friends that are in China now to search for Winne The Pooh on Baidu and Bing, and they were able to find pictures of the character.

The are also Winnie the Pooh cartoons and movies and dolls readily available in China. Along with various merchandise for sale.

So no, it is not banned in China. Neither are time travel movies and TV shows, despite the English news reporting as such.

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