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Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

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Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#61

Post by krageon »

roenxi wrote: post #23
perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

Or alternatively, that the market has a better grasp of the situation than the head of solar analysis at BloombergNEF. Just because she has 'head' and 'solar' in her title doesn't mean she is all-knowing about the solar market. If solar actually represented a better deal companies would be falling over themselves to install solar panels everywhere. It is likely that there are important realities or risks that the ana…

Markets cannot have a grasp of things because they are not people. Even if you view them as a form of group intelligence because they ostensibly involve people, a group optimises for what all of it's participants optimise for: Money, in this case. Sometimes not even money in the long term, but money in the short term.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#62

Post by piotr1212 »

sergiosgc wrote: post #54
piotr1212 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a loss, since consumer prices are about 10¢/kWh by night and 20¢/kWh by day Isn't this "selling at a loss" just the difference that the 10 / 20 c is after tax and you sell without tax, or do you have to add tax to the 10/20 c?

There's no tax involved, other than VAT, which applies to both prices.

Are you sure? Does electricity in Portugal cost 10 to 20 cent before tax? Why is it so expensive? We pay 6 cent/kWH before tax in the Netherlands.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#63

Post by pjc50 »

piotr1212 wrote: post #49
perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

Ouch - being taxed for energy generated cleanly on your own panels is a dire insult and against any kind of sustainability.

At least in the UK, the solar subsidies were set in stone for 20 years at the time of installation; so even though new solar would get little subsidy I'm still getting the rates from five years ago when I installed my system.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#64

Post by pjc50 »

JanSt wrote: post #37
martin_a wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing solar panels has become more and more uninteresting, at least in Germany. In former times there were generous subsidies for installing solar panels: You got, I think, a fixed amount per kWh that you installed on your roof and you also got a better price for the electricity that you put back into the grid. In Germany it's called "Einspeisevergütung" if I remember correctly. This program was limited though,…

Germany already has extremely high energy prices (~0,29€/kwh) of which nearly 0,07€ is just for renewable energy subsidies. More investments will not increase jobs, because China produces solar panels at way lower costs. While I agree that coal needs to be phased out, it's not so much about the 20k jobs but more so about base-load. You either need massive storage (which comes at massive cost) or some other form, i.e.…

It seems ridiculous to pay such high prices and have high coal emissions. Someone's stealing something.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#65

Post by pjc50 »

martin_a wrote: post #29
supermatt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?

I'm no electrician myself, but I know that it's not easy to generate a really good sine wave with a constant frequency and match it to the grid. While electronic componentes are making big steps in that direction, "classic" mechanical generators are still superior for this as they are running very constant. That's why lots of people fear that solar panels with their sudden power generation (as in "clouds are gone, le…

It's definitely a variable, but in the UK "domestic" sizing is up to 4kW. I can induce the same variability in the grid by making a cup of tea with an electric kettle.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#66

Post by piotr1212 »

pjc50 wrote: post #63
piotr1212 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

Ouch - being taxed for energy generated cleanly on your own panels is a dire insult and against any kind of sustainability. At least in the UK, the solar subsidies were set in stone for 20 years at the time of installation; so even though new solar would get little subsidy I'm still getting the rates from five years ago when I installed my system.

> subsidies were set in stone for 20 years

How does that work? A new government can change the law and decide otherwise, well at least that is what they do here.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#67

Post by krageon »

pjc50 wrote: post #63
piotr1212 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

Ouch - being taxed for energy generated cleanly on your own panels is a dire insult and against any kind of sustainability. At least in the UK, the solar subsidies were set in stone for 20 years at the time of installation; so even though new solar would get little subsidy I'm still getting the rates from five years ago when I installed my system.

You would not be taxed for generated energy. Imagine that the cost for you to buy one kWh is ~20 cents. Currently, when you push power back into the grid you get 20 cents back from the power company. The government makes this so. However, the power company actually only really needs to bill you about 4-6 cents (depending on which one you ask). The rest is taxation. This means that after the government stops subsidising panels, you would just get 4-6 cents back per kWh.

Of course this makes the value proposition for moving power into the grid much worse, but it changes precisely nothing for power that you use from your panels (you are still getting 20 cents worth of power from a panel that has already been paid for by you).

For this reason it is best to rely on the subsidy as little as possible and maximise the power you use directly from the panel, either by changing your habits or by storing the power for later (in a battery). Sadly using batteries adds additional costs to this picture and is not currently worth it at all, even without subsidies.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#68

Post by krageon »

piotr1212 wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch - being taxed for energy generated cleanly on your own panels is a dire insult and against any kind of sustainability. At least in the UK, the solar subsidies were set in stone for 20 years at the time of installation; so even though new solar would get little subsidy I'm still getting the rates from five years ago when I installed my system.

> subsidies were set in stone for 20 years How does that work? A new government can change the law and decide otherwise, well at least that is what they do here.

In civilised countries when the government makes a promise they by and large stand by it.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#69

Post by pjc50 »

piotr1212 wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch - being taxed for energy generated cleanly on your own panels is a dire insult and against any kind of sustainability. At least in the UK, the solar subsidies were set in stone for 20 years at the time of installation; so even though new solar would get little subsidy I'm still getting the rates from five years ago when I installed my system.

> subsidies were set in stone for 20 years How does that work? A new government can change the law and decide otherwise, well at least that is what they do here.

Well, it was explicitly promised at the time, and has survived a couple of changes of government. It may be a quasi-contractual agreement, I'm not sure.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#70

Post by bamboozled »

cogman10 wrote: post #41
supermatt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?

Solar does weird things to the baseload. Before solar, utility companies would install baseload plants (nuclear, coal, AFAIK) which output power at a constant rate for cheap. The idea is that your baseload plants would provide power right up to the trough of the demand curves. Solar causes that trough to deepen but doesn't get rid of the peaks (see duck curve). That forces power companies to close down baseload plant…

This little gem has been exceeding expectations from the day it went into service: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358
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