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Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

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Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#51

Post by piotr1212 »

sergiosgc wrote: post #12
perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

It's still not a clear choice, at least not in Portugal. A solar panel + battery setup pays itself back in 10-12 years, without selling electricity back to the grid. This exceeds the warranty/lifetime on batteries and exceeds the warranty on panels (although not the lifetime). It's a risky proposition. Selling back to the grid is priced at the wholesale price: 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a lo…

> 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a loss, since consumer prices are about 10¢/kWh by night and 20¢/kWh by day

Isn't this "selling at a loss" just the difference that the 10 / 20 c is after tax and you sell without tax, or do you have to add tax to the 10/20 c?

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#52

Post by martin_a »

yummypaint wrote: post #31
martin_a wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing solar panels has become more and more uninteresting, at least in Germany. In former times there were generous subsidies for installing solar panels: You got, I think, a fixed amount per kWh that you installed on your roof and you also got a better price for the electricity that you put back into the grid. In Germany it's called "Einspeisevergütung" if I remember correctly. This program was limited though,…

I believe the english term is "feed in laws" where the utility company must pay market rate for power individuals put onto the grid. My understanding is that this was a key driver of Germany's rapid growth in wind power capacity. In the US we dont even have feed in laws

It totally was, I think. Right now building "your own" wind turbine is still a thing.

I know some villages are trying to found a cooperative, crowdfund some money and build their own wind turbine somewhere outside in the hills near the village, before some big company does it. They are looking to collect and lend 6 million Euro for a 3.5 MW, 130 meter wind turbine [1].

[1] https://www.vestas.com/en/products/4-mw-platform/v136-_3_45_...

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#53

Post by ollie87 »

piotr1212 wrote: post #49
perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

A climate change denial party in the NETHERLANDS OF ALL PLACES?!

Wow, I hope they like being under water.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#54

Post by sergiosgc »

piotr1212 wrote: post #51
sergiosgc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not a clear choice, at least not in Portugal. A solar panel + battery setup pays itself back in 10-12 years, without selling electricity back to the grid. This exceeds the warranty/lifetime on batteries and exceeds the warranty on panels (although not the lifetime). It's a risky proposition. Selling back to the grid is priced at the wholesale price: 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a lo…

> 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a loss, since consumer prices are about 10¢/kWh by night and 20¢/kWh by day Isn't this "selling at a loss" just the difference that the 10 / 20 c is after tax and you sell without tax, or do you have to add tax to the 10/20 c?

There's no tax involved, other than VAT, which applies to both prices.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#55

Post by piotr1212 »

ollie87 wrote: post #53
piotr1212 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

A climate change denial party in the NETHERLANDS OF ALL PLACES?! Wow, I hope they like being under water.

Unfortunately, we are one of the worst performing countries on the co2 reductions within Europe. Even coal loving Poland and "poor" countries like Romania outperform us.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#56

Post by llampx »

stefan_ wrote: post #38
B2oka wrote: post #21

Fundamental problem of this type of article: comparing $/kWh across energy sources without accounting for energy dispatchability. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation ) See people commenting on Germany and Portugal situations or articles by this man ( https://medium.com/@oliviercorradi )

Yes. There are times in the German power grid when you can get paid for consuming (green) electricity!

Charging an EV sounds like the best way of taking advantage of that.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#57

Post by krageon »

ollie87 wrote: post #53
piotr1212 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

A climate change denial party in the NETHERLANDS OF ALL PLACES?! Wow, I hope they like being under water.

It is a strategic denial. The Dutch government is (and has always been) as underhanded as possible when it can bring them profits. In this case the profits are in ignoring what is right and exploiting everyone else, a tradition that they have embraced for a very long time.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#58

Post by krageon »

piotr1212 wrote: post #49
perfunctory wrote: post #2

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar…

The amount of years it takes for solar to pay for itself is not set in stone. The ten year prognosis is extremely conservative and frequently untrue, especially if you start to load most of your power-heavy operations (washing, dishes, etc) into the daytime when the generated power is sufficient to support those things.

Given that there is not yet (as far as I'm aware) a tax on kWh used entirely from solar panels (ie not coming from or going into the net, but taken directly from panel generation) it should not matter very much whether or not the government decides to subsidise you. Do not count on a solar panel installation company to make such complicated calculations for you, they are most busy with either sowing unrest about government regulations or (more likely) giving you a fair-weather calculation that involves subsidies forever.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#59

Post by krageon »

sergiosgc wrote: post #54
piotr1212 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a loss, since consumer prices are about 10¢/kWh by night and 20¢/kWh by day Isn't this "selling at a loss" just the difference that the 10 / 20 c is after tax and you sell without tax, or do you have to add tax to the 10/20 c?

There's no tax involved, other than VAT, which applies to both prices.

If you have been told there is no tax involved someone is lying to you. The cost of maintaining the grid and providing power is not as high as you quote as far as I am aware.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#60

Post by krageon »

amirmasoudabdol wrote: post #33
yummypaint wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar may not be the best option for your particular location. You might consider purchasing some sort of carbon offset corresponding to your use (pay to plant x trees etc). https://solargis.com/maps-and-gis-data/download/europe

Is there any organization that you could recommend for planting trees?

The ones I am aware of and are frequently mentioned when such things are discussed on HN are:

- https://onetreeplanted.org/

- https://trees.org/

In terms of concrete results the second one seemed like a likely candidate to me. Donating to them is unacceptable to me because they are based in the US and require a lot of personal information before they will accept a donation.

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