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Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

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Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#481

Post by acchow »

ColanR wrote: post #404
wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

It's been entertaining to read the discussions (below) about how to make this practical. So far, it looks like the only way to make this work is to a) live in a city, or rebuild your suburbia into a city, and b) construct your entire life around riding that bike - choose a job with a tolerant boss, spend extra hours every day showering and changing clothes after biking, etc. I'd rather drive an air-conditioned car, s…

Yes, sustainable population growth is based around a fairly high population density and dropping a car-centric lifestyle.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#482

Post by acchow »

xenocyon wrote: post #382
hwillis wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, electric vehicles are the best option in nearly all cases. Natural gas makes Boston electricity one of the cleaner grids in the country. For my zip, a LR Model 3 makes 131 MPG[1] per unit of CO2, while manufacturing produces ~5 tonnes more CO2 (an SR will be ~3.5 tonnes)[2]. That's a break even period of only 15,000 miles. Unless your gas car will be tossed away in under 15,000 miles you are adding more CO2 to th…

That's interesting. The last time I did the math it looked like the breakeven point would be well over a decade for me (approx 4000 driven miles per year). It may be that things have changed since.

4000 miles per year is much lower than the US average of 13k, or 12k km/year in the EU

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#483

Post by mattlutze »

gsk22 wrote: post #240
mattlutze wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Stuttgart, Germany, Daimler piloted a rent-by-the-minute electric car program (which is proliferating with normal petrol cars elsewhere, called Car2Go). The Smart ForTwos that they use are all electric, and the cable is bolted into the trunk of the car, so it takes its cable with it. The charging unit and car's "fuel port" are both receptive sides of the connection, and both the car and the charging station (the c…

Car2Go used to operate in my US city, but they pulled out a couple years ago under the guise of "an onerous new tax burden" (despite no new taxes being passed). I think the real issue was they were just plain expensive -- barely cheaper than an Uber, and way less comfortable. Other rent-by-time companies like ZipCar are similarly expensive. I'm not convinced that business model works, at least the ways I've seen it i…

Car2Go works here that you don't have to leave or pick them up from designated spots -- they have an agreement with each city to allow general parking, even in neighborhood zones.

Not sure if it was the same in your city, I'm used to ZipCars having special spots which is a little less convenient.

It's a good alternative to public transport when you need to cross a city and transfers would be annoying.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#484

Post by lovemenot »

majormajor wrote: post #447
zaroth wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion right away. You open up a lot of free space if you can take away street parking, which could also significantly alleviate traffic, for example with dedicated lanes for small-personal battery powered bikes, scooters, etc. It’s also not necessary for vehicles to travel several miles to find parking. Typical urban parking is designed so the average person is walking maybe a couple hund…

> Finally, it’s likely the vehicle is not going to park, but rather off to pick up its next ride. Yeah, a managed fleet system could have very different congestion characteristics, but the proposal was specifically that self-parking might be a game changer on its own. At that point it's basically valet parking, and you still have to stash the cars somewhere, and they still have to go back and forth between that somew…

There's a lot of automatic parking in Tokyo and other cities in Japan.

Drive up to the building, which has space for just one car in the "lobby".

Get out of the car, enter data into the console. Your car then enters the building and is stored by a robotic system.

Later, do the same in reverse.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#485

Post by Symbiote »

esotericn wrote: post #470
fyfy18 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries have a much easier time than the US in this regard due to 220V mains voltage. Even with a standard outlet you can fully recharge a Tesla overnight.

> Even with a standard outlet you can fully recharge a Tesla overnight. Nah. 230V 10A is about 2kW and 15A about 3kW. More realistically it's 24h for a 20-80% charge. That said, 2kW is a 10kmh charge, so "overnight" (let's say 12 hours) you can do a 60km commute from a regular socket.

It's at least fairly cheap to install a standard industrial outlet (single phase, or three phase if the house supply has it -- this varies in Europe). That looks to be what older/cheaper street lamp installations have -- a domestic outlet isn't appropriate for outdoor use anyway.

That gets 7kW or more.

From https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-understanding-electric-... :

> If you have a standard domestic single phase (230V) supply, you won't be able to achieve a charging rate of more than 7.4kW. Even with a standard commercial 3 phase connection, the power rating for AC charging is limited to 22kW.

22kW is plenty, and e.g. my apartment in Denmark has a three-phase 40A supply, so houses surely have more than this.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#486

Post by [deleted] »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #355
wffurr wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biked in snow plenty of times. It's fine. Also cities can plow bike trails even easier than they plow streets. Plenty of bike options for little kids. Seats, trailers, box bikes, etc. etc.

How can they plow bike trails easier than streets, especially in the case where the trail is not attached to a street?

[deleted]

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#487

Post by benplumley »

adrianN wrote: post #461
squeaky-clean wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You NEED roads though. Even if you can reach 100% of the city through walking and public transportation, what do you do when you move? Take a train trip for your sofa, and another for your dining room table, and so on? How do local stores and restaurants get their goods delivered? How do you get packages larger than an envelope delivered to your home? How do emergency services and fire rescue reach your home? Do town…

This is a typical neighborhood road in Berlin https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.... This is a road in central Tokyo https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260... This is a random road in San Mateo https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,3... You need roads, but you don't need roads that as wide as those in American urban sprawl

I feel almost agoraphobic when I look at pictures of suburban USA. I think it's a combination of flat landscape, low buildings, wide roads, no mature trees (your example notwithstanding) and no real features on the horizon.

Off topic, what's going on in the Berlin example? The whole left side of the photo looks like it's been redacted, are the homeowners requesting their houses be removed?

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#488

Post by lovemenot »

mises wrote: post #306
wffurr wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't put the kids on the ebike to daycare? Seems like that would be faster and easier than dealing with a car. Just wait until you start in on the total mess that is school drop-off when every parent decides they have to drive their kid to school. Much faster to breeze past the stopped traffic on a bicycle, unstrap the kids and send them on their way, and bike to the train.

Not every one has only two kids. It's going to get awfully tough for those with four or five without a minivan.

Only three kids, but it was never a problem not to own a car, here in a city with good transportation and where riding with a kid front and back of bicycle is normal.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#489

Post by jaclaz »

Besides garage orphans, also those with self standing homes and a garage will have (or become) a problem.

Say that in you street that are 50 single family homes connected to a same cabin/transformer.

The electric infrastructure powering them (lines, transformer, etc.) has been dimensioned to power them at their average current power consumption rate + something to take care of peaks + something more to take care of exceptions (like - say - a constructions site for the renovation of one of the homes).

Now the existing infrastructure will have no issue with your single electric car charging at night, and probably with that of your neighboor on the left and that of your neighbour on the right, but the moment a given number of families will have an electic car, each of them will try to use 5 kW of additional power more or less at the same time.

That is a lot of "juice" and it sums up quickly.

I believe (correct me if you have better data) that in the US the infrastructure is generally dimensioned[1] for something like 6 or 8 kW per unit, so, adding to each house some "constant" 5 kW for the charging (even if only at night) is almost using all the capability of the infrastructure and possible peaks might create issues.

[1] when estimating the need of a line the usual formula is roughly between

1/3 max power x 1.20

and

1/2 max power x 1.10

so assuming the peak is 15 kW, that would be between 15/3 kW x 1.20 = 6 kW and 15/2 kW x 1.10= 8.25 kW

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#490

Post by adrianN »

benplumley wrote: post #487
adrianN wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a typical neighborhood road in Berlin https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.... This is a road in central Tokyo https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260... This is a random road in San Mateo https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,3... You need roads, but you don't need roads that as wide as those in American urban sprawl

I feel almost agoraphobic when I look at pictures of suburban USA. I think it's a combination of flat landscape, low buildings, wide roads, no mature trees (your example notwithstanding) and no real features on the horizon. Off topic, what's going on in the Berlin example? The whole left side of the photo looks like it's been redacted, are the homeowners requesting their houses be removed?

German privacy laws \o/
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