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I Paid a Bribe

ipaidabribe.com

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Re: I Paid a Bribe

#91

Post by srean »

thisisananth wrote: post #29
radu_floricica wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Romanian. We're not as bad as Mexic, in the sense we don't have drug lords and piles of bodies, but we definitely don't lose in corruption. I've spent not a little time thinking about what can be done. I know the problem (pretty much everybody knows the problem) - politicians suck. They're either corrupt and incompetent, or just corrupt. Problem is, we really really don't have any alternatives. There is absolutel…

In India for example, I think everyone pays a bribe to get a passport. If we don't, then passport will be stuck somewhere for months and months without coming out. Even for knowing why it is not getting processed, you have to pay bribe. So finally, everyone has stopped questioning and started giving money to agents to get the things done. The problem is no one is responsible if the citizen is not getting the promised…

I disagree that everyone in India pays a bribe for a passport. A handful of my friends applied for their passport while in college and none of them paid, neither did I. In fact my passport got stolen while I was in US and it was kind of urgent that I get a replacement, but I managed to get one without bribing. It took time though.

I think sometimes we hastily assume that a bribe is needed and are proactive about it. But I have to say that it still tickles me no end to think about the policeman who had come to our college for the express purpose of collecting bribes from us. He had come all the way from Lucknow to Kanpur a good 3 hour journey expecting to make a killing.

Just the look on his face when my friends refused...priceless !!

But a lot of the lack of transparency that you mention can now be tackled thanks to instruments like RTI (the Indian analogue of FOIA).

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#92

Post by srean »

known wrote: post #50

Do not fight corruption in India unless you carry a licensed pistol.

This is a gross exaggeration. The petty corruption that permeates is surprisingly easy to resist if you can put up with some delays and other inconveniences. If your comment was about going up against bigger fish like the mafia, then I don't think even that will help much.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#93

Post by radu_floricica »

thisisananth wrote: post #29
radu_floricica wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Romanian. We're not as bad as Mexic, in the sense we don't have drug lords and piles of bodies, but we definitely don't lose in corruption. I've spent not a little time thinking about what can be done. I know the problem (pretty much everybody knows the problem) - politicians suck. They're either corrupt and incompetent, or just corrupt. Problem is, we really really don't have any alternatives. There is absolutel…

In India for example, I think everyone pays a bribe to get a passport. If we don't, then passport will be stuck somewhere for months and months without coming out. Even for knowing why it is not getting processed, you have to pay bribe. So finally, everyone has stopped questioning and started giving money to agents to get the things done. The problem is no one is responsible if the citizen is not getting the promised…

Entering the European Union did some good for us. A lot of public services have to adhere to European standards, and it works. For example there is a set period in which you must get your passport/identity card/driver's licence and they respect it.

The corruption mostly moved higher. I had a coffee with a friend who works in a public institution a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about EU funds absorption. I'm a software guy, and I'd love to do projects for his institution (or any other). There's a huge need for software projects at every level - national and local. And there are lots of money available for this, provided by the EU. So why am I not working with the government (nor is anybody I know)?

Because things go like this. Say my friend wants to put something online in his institution. He has to get about 3 signatures, the last of which is pretty high in the ministry. And the guy in the ministry will invariably think something like: "if it's am idea worth doing, then we'll file it for when we can do it on a bigger scale with our boys".

So yeah. Like I said, main problems are 1. politicians up high and 2. the fact that institutions are now completely political, to the level where I can bet there's a doorman somewhere who's been hired just because his brother in law is in the right party.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#94

Post by radu_floricica »

pessimizer wrote: post #48
radu_floricica wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Romanian. We're not as bad as Mexic, in the sense we don't have drug lords and piles of bodies, but we definitely don't lose in corruption. I've spent not a little time thinking about what can be done. I know the problem (pretty much everybody knows the problem) - politicians suck. They're either corrupt and incompetent, or just corrupt. Problem is, we really really don't have any alternatives. There is absolutel…

I saw a great film that came out this year called Kapitalism: Our Improved Formula that paints an really dire picture of the current state of Romanian corruption, and if any country has had a public uprising against the state of their government, Romania qualifies.

Yeap. The current state of affairs is no secret to anybody. The problem is a complete lack of realistic solutions.

We won't get out in the streets. We're not hungry enough, and we don't have a culture of protesting. We pretty much think the French are uncivilized when they burn cars in the street - civilized peoples solve their problems otherwise. But how?

It's be easier if the press was somehow keeping silent, but they're not. They're scathingly vocal, if somehow distracting. The future definitely looks a lot more like Brave New World then 1984...

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#95

Post by pessimizer »

radu_floricica wrote: post #94
pessimizer wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a great film that came out this year called Kapitalism: Our Improved Formula that paints an really dire picture of the current state of Romanian corruption, and if any country has had a public uprising against the state of their government, Romania qualifies.

Yeap. The current state of affairs is no secret to anybody. The problem is a complete lack of realistic solutions. We won't get out in the streets. We're not hungry enough, and we don't have a culture of protesting. We pretty much think the French are uncivilized when they burn cars in the street - civilized peoples solve their problems otherwise. But how? It's be easier if the press was somehow keeping silent, but t…

The movie had an interview with a Jerry Springer style talk show host guy, and his take on it was that most of the people who took to the streets during the revolution left the country when they realised that in the new capitalism would be owned by the old ex-Securitate(sp?) types. The people who were left were the fearful keep-your-head-down types that watched everything on tv, the people from the countryside who wouldn't even have good enough roads to make it to a protest, and the people who weren't that dissatisfied with the way it was.

So basically, he said that the culture of protest got a train ticket and left.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#96

Post by pessimizer »

poet wrote: post #45
bguthrie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived in India, I am with Guelo. The "everyday folks" the parent refers to--for most of us, (relatively) wealthy people with white-collar jobs living in rich Western societies--constitute some 5% of the world's wealthiest people. Most human beings living today are not in a position to blow $20 (Indian gross income per capita, per World Bank, 2008: $1040/yr) on a perk, let alone a bribe for some…

You're argument is orthogonal to my point. I'm aware of the wealth differences. I see similar differences quite often in the inner city of Chicago. One overarching trend among the less well off that Guelo demonstrates is a venomance that gets in the way of cooperation and progress. As an example, I have seen young children refuse to be taught by quite capable teachers because the teacher is white and wears jeans that…

The child doing the hating has lost already, they didn't lose because they hated after the fact. They're children growing up in one of the most neglected public school systems in the country in one of the most segregated cities in the country. When I was growing up there, I feared and hated white people too, because my only experiences of them were negative ones. Sitting in that horribly overcrowded, neglected school with my decade old books faced with a teacher who would have much rather taught at the private school his/her kids went to, and who thought that my motivations were as simple as jealousy over his jeans wasn't an easy situation for a kid, and probably still isn't.

And why exactly would you ascribe a trait or "trend" that you notice in Guelo to the "less well off"? Do you have to be poor to be against bribery - or, rather - tipping for special treatment? Is the only possible motivation to be against the corrupt administration of services jealousy? These are not rhetorical questions.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#97

Post by pessimizer »

sp4rki wrote: post #83
getonit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can buying favours be anything other than a class issue?

I can, for example, give 100 bucks to a friend to do my homework, and he might accept and do my homework even though he has more money than me. Trading money for favors is not necessarily a measure of wealth, and wealth does not preclude asking/providing any kind of favors

That's not trading money for favors, that's employing someone. If you give 100 bucks to the teacher to ignore the fact that you don't do your homework, that's trading money for favors.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#98

Post by sp4rki »

pessimizer wrote: post #97
sp4rki wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can, for example, give 100 bucks to a friend to do my homework, and he might accept and do my homework even though he has more money than me. Trading money for favors is not necessarily a measure of wealth, and wealth does not preclude asking/providing any kind of favors

That's not trading money for favors, that's employing someone. If you give 100 bucks to the teacher to ignore the fact that you don't do your homework, that's trading money for favors.

You can see it however you like, however you're completely missing the point. If you pay 100 bucks to a teacher to look the other way while you're living on ramen and have 300 bucks in your savings account, while your professor has say 20k in his checking account and property to his name, who's wealthier or upper class? The point I was making is that trading money for favors is not some exclusive power only the wealthy/upper-class does to the not-wealthy/lower-class.

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#99

Post by SimonPStevens »

gnosis wrote: post #82
SimonPStevens wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To cite one example, the Alton Towers theme park in the UK has a ticketing system that allows you to pay more for "fast track" tickets. Fast track tickets allow you to join a separate queue. The number of fast track tickets available are limited so the queues remain very short, and actual boarding of each ride is controlled so it is never dominated by fast track ticket holders. The fast track ticket prices vary depen…

"it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose." But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter wait, and who wouldn't want that? Could it be that not everyone can afford to use the system? Is this really fair? And how do you know that it's "perceived as fair"? By whom? How many people who are waiting in the slow line have you surveyed?

"But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter wait, and who wouldn't want that?"

I see it as a trade off.

Lets say you are in a queue that is 2 hours long. You are offered the opportunity to half your queue time for £5, and you can pay multiple times to repeatedly half your queuing time as many times as you want. How many times will you pay the £5 for an ever decreasing return?

There is a trade off here between queueing time and cost. Regardless of your available wealth you won't repeat the payment indefinitely. Internally you assign a value to your lost time, and you trade that against the value of the payment you are willing to make.

The balancing point of the trade off depends on your personal circumstances, availability of monetary wealth and your desired goals.

The fast track system builds the same trade off. The more you are willing to pay the more reduction in wait times you can get, but the higher up the scale you go, the smaller the gain becomes, and there are a range of available ticket types that target different goals (Multiple use, certain rides only, single use, booked time slots, etc). Each user can trade off money against queue time to maximise their goals.

It's fair because all of the available options are clearly documented and made available to everyone indiscriminately. The choice is yours to trade money for time.

It's also fair because those who don't assign high value to the trade off are protected in some way. Fast track tickets are limited in quantity, so most people have to queue, there is not a situation where 10% get stuck waiting exponentially longer. 90% have the same queue, and only the 10% who assign the highest value to the trade off can receive the benefits.

Just because some people can't afford something doesn't make it unfair. I can't afford a Ferrari, but that isn't unfair.

"By whom?"

By me. ;-)

Seriously though, while I have witnessed people cutting into lines unfairly and arguments starting in many other situations I have never seen a confrontation due to the fast track ticket system.

(Perhaps this is because it is sanctioned by the organisation so maybe people just grumble silently in this case, who knows)

Re: I Paid a Bribe

#100

Post by getonit »

sp4rki wrote: post #98
pessimizer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not trading money for favors, that's employing someone. If you give 100 bucks to the teacher to ignore the fact that you don't do your homework, that's trading money for favors.

You can see it however you like, however you're completely missing the point. If you pay 100 bucks to a teacher to look the other way while you're living on ramen and have 300 bucks in your savings account, while your professor has say 20k in his checking account and property to his name, who's wealthier or upper class? The point I was making is that trading money for favors is not some exclusive power only the wealt…

How would you rate the relative proportions of same-class bribery such as that and 'downwards' bribery?
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