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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

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Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#131

Post by pinkskip »

willis936 wrote: post #81
pinkskip wrote: post #73

HKIA is the critical lifeline of Hong Kong, the economy is already suffering, i think its matter of time before PLA gets involved. I'm very concerned for Hong Kong and its people.

What could force possibly accomplish? Do you think an economy would operate after you massacre thousands? Do you think people would show up to work? They could sack the city, guaranteeing no money would come out of it. If it’s profit they want then they will need to bend, not break.

I agree that force would only result in more pushback. But Beijing increasingly sees Hong Kong as a problematic territory. At the time of handover Hong Kong almost constituted 18% of China’s GDP and now it’s less than that of what Shenzhen contributes. So Hong Kong is losing its leverage to claim autonomy and if Hong Kong’s economy further contracts, what choice people in Hong Kong have?

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#132

Post by mytailorisrich »

hvidgaard wrote: post #53
cdmckay wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has already stated their real intentions. After 50 years of autonomy, there will be no 1 country, 2 systems. They stated this when they took over control of HK and Macau. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

From the very first paragraph of your link > Under the principle, each of the two regions could continue to have its own governmental system, legal, economic and financial affairs, including trade relations with foreign countries. Yet they're trying to pass a law that essentially allow China to extradite people in HK to mainland China, for any reason mainland China makes up. That is not 1 country, 2 systems as the le…

This is not a factual description of the bill.

The extradition bill would allow mainland China (and Macau and Taiwan) to request HK authorities that some accused of having committed a crime there to be extradited. The request would then be examined by HK courts as is the case in extradition cases.

I understand that HK people don't trust mainland courts and perhaps also that they don't fully trust their own, but this is not about allowing anyone in HK to be sent to the mainland.

Mainland China has extradition treaties with some western countries, by the way.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#134

Post by FabHK »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #129
mushufasa wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hong Kong protests are about democratic values, which were instilled in Hong Kong by the British for 150 years. Ideas like the Magna Carta (everyone has inherent rights and no one is above the law), freedom of the press, Common Law. People who grew up in mainland china do not have that cultural context. Opposite values were taught (no 'inherent rights' outside of government policy, censorship of press to maintain…

Hong Kong was very far from a democracy for the vast majority of British rule. Patten, the last governor, did start installing some from the 1990s, much to the everlasting ire of the Chinese Communist Party, and it's certainly taken root quite fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...

> Hong Kong was very far from a democracy

True, to an extent, yet it had civil liberties and the rule of law to a larger extent than China. So, I think GP's argument still stands.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#135

Post by FabHK »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #66
notwumao wrote: post #55

I am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past, have started donating money to pr…

May I ask you why you are against the protests? Also would you support the CCP making a public statement taking a step back and agreeing to listen to the protesters' concerns?

> why you are against the protests?

Note that GP never stated that. They gave an assessment (correct, in my view) of mainland opinion about the protests, they never said that they subscribed to that opinion.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#136

Post by pjc50 »

Simon_says wrote: post #125
pjc50 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are really only two possible endings. One is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 , and the other is Taiwan. Either China consolidates control over HK and it loses critical political freedoms, ceasing being a democracy even in the slight way that it already is; or, somehow, incredibly, the protestors win and HK gets to retain its quasi-independence while China claims to be sovereign but la…

Without guns it's hard to see how Hong Kong ends up free as Taiwan is. Like, seriously, what sequence of events gets us from here to there? Think about this next time governments talk about taking away your guns and anti-tank mines for the public's own protection.

> anti-tank mines for the public's own protection

Seriously can we not? Mines are such a horrendous lingering danger to the public that most militaries restrict them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#137

Post by culturestate »

Simon_says wrote: post #125
pjc50 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are really only two possible endings. One is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 , and the other is Taiwan. Either China consolidates control over HK and it loses critical political freedoms, ceasing being a democracy even in the slight way that it already is; or, somehow, incredibly, the protestors win and HK gets to retain its quasi-independence while China claims to be sovereign but la…

Without guns it's hard to see how Hong Kong ends up free as Taiwan is. Like, seriously, what sequence of events gets us from here to there? Think about this next time governments talk about taking away your guns and anti-tank mines for the public's own protection.

As an American who has lived in Hong Kong for many years, I can comfortably say that if every Hong Kong citizen were armed with an AR-15 and 1,000 rounds of ammo they still wouldn't be able to hold off the PLA for any meaningful length of time.

An armed populace is not now nor will it ever again be the answer to this or any other geopolitical debate involving an advanced, militarily powerful national adversary.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#139

Post by apta »

mushufasa wrote: post #91
notwumao wrote: post #55

I am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past, have started donating money to pr…

The Hong Kong protests are about democratic values, which were instilled in Hong Kong by the British for 150 years. Ideas like the Magna Carta (everyone has inherent rights and no one is above the law), freedom of the press, Common Law. People who grew up in mainland china do not have that cultural context. Opposite values were taught (no 'inherent rights' outside of government policy, censorship of press to maintain…

> everyone has inherent rights and no one is above the law

I don't see how these are "democratic values". They're extremely important things to have obviously, but they're orthogonal to whether the system is democratic or not.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#140

Post by [deleted] »

kitsune_ wrote: post #69
EliRivers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China people looked relaxed, spent time relaxing in parks and socialising. I went to Hong Kong and it was unbearable crammed, people were stressed and over worked and there was no escape from the hamster wheel. No wonder mainland Chinese have little sympathy for HK. I don't follow. If life in China is so nice and life in HK is so stressed and unbearable, wouldn't the people of mainland China have more sympathy for…

Why would they? You need a pretty convincing story to justify protests that disrupt 'normal' life, especially to mainlanders who saw a miraculous improvement of their living standards in their life time. It's pretty easy to exploit the scenes of protestors throwing a Chinese flag into the sea and drumming up a patriotic sentiment with it.

[deleted]
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