121–130 of 169 posts
PLA was doing innuendo charged manoeuvres for the past 2 months all over the province. Today, they were finally moved to the HK bridge terminus. They even plastered banners with something like "you got it" on their APCs
I have been wondering how long it will be before the HK gov calls in the PLA to 'restore order'.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they are literally protesting for democracy Protests don't achieve democracy, voting does. If all participants in the recent protests were willing to volunteer, printing a few million ballots and distributing them to improvised polling stations wouldn't be insurmountable. The Hong Kong Identity Card means that voter ID can be implemented without access to government records, simply by assigning a range of ID number…
> Protests don't achieve democracy, voting does. History strongly begs to differ - assembly to address grievances is just as crucial a step in achieving democracy as a vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta#Great_Charter_of_1... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
My point is that although protests are a way to force a vote to occur, it's the actual act of voting that makes a democracy, and protests are neither necessary nor sufficient for that.
It seems to me that the protests in Hong Kong don't have to wait for the government to "allow" them to hold a vote, so long as they can manage the logistics.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_South_African_apartheid_r...
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Regarding the second question, I felt humiliated by the protestors' vandalism on the Chinese flag and emblem, which are symbols of our national identity. If my government ended up making concessions to the protestors' demand, it would be a hard pill for me to swallow.
I’m sure if concessions were made, the protesters probably wouldn’t be as likely to do such things. Would you be willing to meet them in the middle?
The PRC leadership is not stupid, either. They see the suspension of the bill as test of whether this whole thing was about the bill or something else. As suspected, it was about something else. Given that, no concession the PRC is willing to make will be enough. This is bigger than HK now and frankly out of HK'ers hands as to how it evolves next.
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I’m sure if concessions were made, the protesters probably wouldn’t be as likely to do such things. Would you be willing to meet them in the middle?
You are being way too charitable. The five demands materialized out of one demand ("don't rush the bill") after Carrie Lam made a concession to suspend the bill. Middle-of-the-road concessions are not what the protestors are looking for now, if they ever were. Indeed they have indicated a strategy to use this moment to extract the maximal concession. That's a fairly extremist position that is probably unwise, and lea…
Suspending the bill with the implication of rushing it through when the protests have ended is not a concession, merely a move achieve PRC goals more quietly. Protesters have recognized and called it out as such. The fact that you don't seem to know that makes your statements suspect.
"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.
There are really only two possible endings. One is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 , and the other is Taiwan. Either China consolidates control over HK and it loses critical political freedoms, ceasing being a democracy even in the slight way that it already is; or, somehow, incredibly, the protestors win and HK gets to retain its quasi-independence while China claims to be sovereign but la…
Think about this next time governments talk about taking away your guns and anti-tank mines for the public's own protection.
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From the very first paragraph of your link > Under the principle, each of the two regions could continue to have its own governmental system, legal, economic and financial affairs, including trade relations with foreign countries. Yet they're trying to pass a law that essentially allow China to extradite people in HK to mainland China, for any reason mainland China makes up. That is not 1 country, 2 systems as the le…
My impression would be that China isn't going to flip a switch after 50 years and suddenly switch to the Chinese system. I would imagine they would do it gradually like they're doing now.
So by forcing this law, and forcefully silence the protesters it will be clear that they're not going for the 1 country, 2 systems; but rather 1 country, 2 systems except for ... until it's just 1 country.
This is intensely interesting because everything points towards China never backing down, and protesters having nothing to win. The default assumption is continuity of the party and the system. Yet, looking at history, systems are not that stable. The Berlin wall and Sowjet union seemed like they would not end. I assume 3-letter agencies have vast amounts of resources dedicated to analyzing how to create the instabil…
I am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past, have started donating money to pr…
The Hong Kong protests are about democratic values, which were instilled in Hong Kong by the British for 150 years. Ideas like the Magna Carta (everyone has inherent rights and no one is above the law), freedom of the press, Common Law. People who grew up in mainland china do not have that cultural context. Opposite values were taught (no 'inherent rights' outside of government policy, censorship of press to maintain…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...
This is intensely interesting because everything points towards China never backing down, and protesters having nothing to win. The default assumption is continuity of the party and the system. Yet, looking at history, systems are not that stable. The Berlin wall and Sowjet union seemed like they would not end. I assume 3-letter agencies have vast amounts of resources dedicated to analyzing how to create the instabil…
The Soviets were bankrupt.