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Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

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Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#91

Post by kazinator »

Causality1 wrote: post #85
corodra wrote: post #53

Don't get me wrong, I saw the title and was excited. I want this to be real. I want to believe. But way too many keyword drops. Disruptive is what red flagged me the most. Way too many promises. Only lab results and "experts" commenting that it should work in theory. But no prototype? Even though it's a different motor they don't "believe" it's going to cost more to make than traditional motors? Only 3d renders? I th…

On nearly any kind of coverage of an "amazing new innovation", the simplest sanity check you can do is check if they've filed a patent. If they haven't bothered, you'll be dead and buried before their work has any impact on your life.

Even if they've filed a patent, it could be complete garbage, like perpetual motion or energy out of nothing.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#92

Post by natermer »

bArray wrote: post #33
natermer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a lay person somewhat familiar with the terminology. I am going to be wrong on several details. What they were talking about is phase weakening. Think of voltage as 'electrical pressure'. Like PSI or Bar. Think of amperage as 'volume per second' or 'amount of electrons (equivalent charge) per second'... like liters per minute. Combine the volume per second by pressure and you get total energy per second; watts. H…

Very interesting, thank you! Do you have more information I can read about phase weakening and BLDC control algorithms? I ask because I happen to be designing a BLDC motor controller, I am aware of using the back EMF to measure the motor phase, but never considered it as a force slowing the motor down. As a software engineer by trade I was hoping I could perhaps dynamically switch between the two control techniques t…

Check out endless-sphere.com. There are people there doin home-built motors and designing controllers. 99% of the content is just people messing around with their bicycles or arguing over silly things, but there are a few very highly technical people.

Also there is a open source motor controller called VESC from Vedder Electronics.

http://vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/

It's a modern controller with FOC modes and such things.

Originally designed for electric skateboards it has gone through many revisions and is a viable commercial product. The developer has a official vendor for buying the design, but there are many clones and variations of different prices and quality.

There are people on endless-sphere working on variations to scale it up for larger EVs.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#93

Post by bob1029 »

sunstone wrote: post #56
corodra wrote: post #53

Don't get me wrong, I saw the title and was excited. I want this to be real. I want to believe. But way too many keyword drops. Disruptive is what red flagged me the most. Way too many promises. Only lab results and "experts" commenting that it should work in theory. But no prototype? Even though it's a different motor they don't "believe" it's going to cost more to make than traditional motors? Only 3d renders? I th…

Electric motors are remarkably good already. Even if it doubled the power for half the weight you still need lug along all those batteries.

I am not sure why we are focused on the electric car angle. Assuming this motor design is legitimate and practical, I feel the implications for commercial/industrial prime movers and power generation are far more substantial. Hypothetically, if we were to replace all existing HVAC compressor and blower motors with this technology, where would that leave us in terms of power consumption reduction? How much wider do the applications become due to the variable speed capability of the motor design?

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#94

Post by hedora »

RickJWagner wrote: post #57
corodra wrote: post #53

Don't get me wrong, I saw the title and was excited. I want this to be real. I want to believe. But way too many keyword drops. Disruptive is what red flagged me the most. Way too many promises. Only lab results and "experts" commenting that it should work in theory. But no prototype? Even though it's a different motor they don't "believe" it's going to cost more to make than traditional motors? Only 3d renders? I th…

I had the same reaction. Reminds me of old claims for a 50 mpg carburtor (on cars circa 1970). There's definitely a fishy smell about it.

Yeah; my old GMC had a carburetor and the fuel economy is the same as the current replacement, which is the same size, runs half the cylinders (unless it needs all 8) re-levels into aerodynamic mode at speed, and has shutters that close the radiator grill when possible. (The new one is fuel injected, etc).

I’m not sure what fuel injectors and electronic ignition got the industry, but it wasn’t real world fuel economy.

Oddly, even current year light hybrids are advertising similar fuel economy as the old truck. I’m guessing it isn’t a technical problem....

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#95

Post by guntars »

magicalhippo wrote: post #83
throwawaycanada wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors are already well over 90% efficient. I don't see what they could do to improve this. Maybe weight/power ratio? Even then, Tesla pretty much nailed it with his three phase "squirrel cage" motor. That's why even today that is what a Tesla car uses and it's what quadricopters use.

In the Fully Charged episode[1] linked in a recent thread here about some guy in Amsterdam making electric cars and boats, the guy mentions that the motors have brushes. I was mildly surprised as I just assumed they'd be brushless DC motors. Are they just efficient enough that the cost/simplicity outweighs going brusless? Or are there other advantages to using brushed motors for electric vehicles? [1]: https://www.yo…

Perhaps it’s simpler and more efficient speed control circuitry. For a DC motor you just need to step down the DC voltage from the batteries. For a brushless motor you basically need a variable frequency inverter that’s necessarily going to be more complex and possibly less efficient.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#96

Post by wingspar »

hedora wrote: post #94
RickJWagner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction. Reminds me of old claims for a 50 mpg carburtor (on cars circa 1970). There's definitely a fishy smell about it.

Yeah; my old GMC had a carburetor and the fuel economy is the same as the current replacement, which is the same size, runs half the cylinders (unless it needs all 8) re-levels into aerodynamic mode at speed, and has shutters that close the radiator grill when possible. (The new one is fuel injected, etc). I’m not sure what fuel injectors and electronic ignition got the industry, but it wasn’t real world fuel economy…

I think a big driver for fuel injection and electronic ignition was reliability and meeting emissions standards.

Old style carburetor and mechanical ignition regularly required ‘real’ tune-ups and had horrible tailpipe emissions.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#97

Post by hyperbovine »

mikeash wrote: post #86
sunstone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors are remarkably good already. Even if it doubled the power for half the weight you still need lug along all those batteries.

Right, look at the size of the motor versus the size of the batteries in an electric car. Efficiency is already well over 90%, too. If you managed to create an idealized electric motor that was 100% efficient, had no limits on power, torque, or RPM, weighed nothing, took up no space, and cost nothing, it would be a nice improvement but I don't think even this would revolutionize electric cars. Batteries are the key.

Amdahl’s law of EVs.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#98

Post by avar »

mikeash wrote: post #86
sunstone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors are remarkably good already. Even if it doubled the power for half the weight you still need lug along all those batteries.

Right, look at the size of the motor versus the size of the batteries in an electric car. Efficiency is already well over 90%, too. If you managed to create an idealized electric motor that was 100% efficient, had no limits on power, torque, or RPM, weighed nothing, took up no space, and cost nothing, it would be a nice improvement but I don't think even this would revolutionize electric cars. Batteries are the key.

If you had a motor like that you wouldn't need batteries. You'd power the car with the motor :)

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#99

Post by nimbius »

maybe not in this case, but from a history of machining, motors have made quiet and remarkable strides. original cone lathes for metalworking were driven by steam engines and a PTO driveshaft. aside from being ridiculously dangerous to operate, they had inconsistent results for tight tolerances. It wasnt unheard of for watchmakers to also find themselves as lathemakers in the early 20th century. Motor speed from PTO was largely not variable.

During WWII motor speed was controlled with a clutch and transmission system, which arguably allowed for the type of finesse and control you need to run a shaper for a large tank engine, or a mill for certain explosives of the nuclear persuasion. older machinists handbooks will still reference your 'gear' when making a cut as a feed rate suggestion. old shapers still have a gearbox and shifter.

along comes the VSM and its a game changer. The variable motor speed can control RPM maximum down to almost zero RPM. In the early 20th century, this simply was not possible. Previously if you wanted to change speed you had to park/reset the lathe and dial your tolerances back in. The way around gear speed change time was to intentionally oversize the part and take it to an automatic filer, but this wears down files and is only an option for certain manufacturers that care about the end product more than the tool wear (WWII again)

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#100

Post by dzhiurgis »

mikeash wrote: post #86
sunstone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors are remarkably good already. Even if it doubled the power for half the weight you still need lug along all those batteries.

Right, look at the size of the motor versus the size of the batteries in an electric car. Efficiency is already well over 90%, too. If you managed to create an idealized electric motor that was 100% efficient, had no limits on power, torque, or RPM, weighed nothing, took up no space, and cost nothing, it would be a nice improvement but I don't think even this would revolutionize electric cars. Batteries are the key.

While motor efficiency is 90%, drivetrain is less than that because of gearbox. This motor claims to remove this inefficiency.
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