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Home Chip Fab

sam.zeloof.xyz

121–130 of 136 posts

Re: Home Chip Fab

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see the image you're referring to at the moment, but I imagine the fuzziness you are seeing is due to this fact: chips perform better if the features are smaller. Because of this, manufacturers want to make chip features as small as they can without causing failures, which means that you are manufacturing things at the scale that your manufacturing precision is barely sufficient, which means that the componen…

This. Every step in fabrication has limits on its resolution beyond the resolution of the machine exposing the polymer resist. The resist has a finite thickness (often comparable to the size of the feature you are trying to make). The developer solution works downwards through the exposed resist, but also outwards at the edges (where you will have some proximity effect in the exposure). Deposited metal or insulator s…

>"This. Every step in fabrication has limits on its resolution beyond the resolution of the machine exposing the polymer resist."

I didn't quite understand what you meant here. Could you elaborate on this? What are some of those limits?

>"These things are very small and if we could make the corners sharper, that would remove one major barrier to making them even smaller. And then they wouldn't look so tidy anymore."

Aren't these contradictory? Did you mean to say "And then they would look so tidy"?

Re: Home Chip Fab

#122
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dispose of it properly and safely. I see a lot of people say this, but I rarely see any actionable advice. How does your average residential person find and dispose of chemicals like this? Seems like most people end up pouring them down the drain simply because they don't know how to actually find a better means of disposing them.

> I see a lot of people say this, but I rarely see any actionable advice. If you have industrial quantities of chemicals (more than a gallon or so), you need to call the relevant entities. If you are lucky enough to have a hazardous waste disposal locally, obviously use that. If you have stuff that doesn't break down well in water (cooking grease, for example), pouring that down the drain is always a recipe for troub…

PSA: here in the SF bay, auto parts stores all have oil recycling receptacles. Check with them before you go and put it down the drain, surfactant or not. For other substances, there are also hazmat acceptance sites around, although they seem to keep annoying hours.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be the microgravity that's the major help, but the hard vacuum. Deep space is the biggest, best clean room there could ever be.

Wouldn't you have to deal with radiation that you are normally shielded from in Earth`s atmosphere? That may be more difficult to shield from than producing a normal clean room.

I would bet that it's easier to design an orbital or moon-based structure (depending on whether production benefits from or suffers from microgravity) that's heavily shielded with lead, than it would be to create a deep-space-class hard vacuum in a volume of space on Earth suitable for large-scale industrial processes. It's a simple matter of not making the structure airtight.

Given the volume and mass payload capabilities of the upcoming Starship/Superheavy, cheaply lifting bulk quantities of lead into space may actually be a reasonable proposal in the next five years rather than ultra-expensive pie-in-the-sky fantasy as it was during the age of disposable rockets.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#124
post #20

Please don't dump your solvent down the drain like every Silicon Valley fab did back in the day, poisoning the entire region for decades to come. Just look up how many EPA Superfund sites are in the South Bay due to trichloroethylene, TCE contamination. Dispose of it properly and safely.

> Dispose of it properly and safely. I see a lot of people say this, but I rarely see any actionable advice. How does your average residential person find and dispose of chemicals like this? Seems like most people end up pouring them down the drain simply because they don't know how to actually find a better means of disposing them.

> How does your average residential person find and dispose of chemicals like this?

How do you dispose electronics? Batteries? Oil? Tires? Cars? Furniture? construction materials? ...

You go to the webpage of your local garbage disposal authority, and read their FAQ, which typically contains where all their disposal centers are, their addresses, opening hours, etc. and what can you dispose on each one.

If what you want to dispose is not listed anywhere, you call them and ask them.

In my country if you want to buy these types of chemicals, you need to ask a company for a price, and the company will ask: who are you? what do you want them for? what's your process for the chemicals? Etc. If you fail to answer any of the questions, they are obligated to report that a "sketchy" party tried to buy some chemicals from them. That might get you a visit from the police, asking even more questions.

That's balancing your freedom to do whatever you want with chemicals with my freedom to enjoy a world that hasn't been polluted by idiots that didn't know what they were doing.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#125
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A highschooler don't end up with a garage full of equipment like that unless their parents are already in the industry.

Nope, Zeloof got most of the stuff on Craigslist and Ebay. The big stuff is usually pretty old, and alot is hacked together (e-beam stepper) or custom built entirely (sputtering chamber, or whatever the plasma machine is called I forget).

Still, even the broken stuff is very expensive. Somewhere near the beginning he said he cut the wafers with a CNC laser. We have one of those at university (very entry level) for cutting wood and it cost over 10k. The few community driven fablabs that have lasers almost never allow people to cut their own materials because they can produce toxic gases or reflections that damage the laser optics.

Even if you're the next Albert Einstein you will never be able to even attempt a project like that unless your parents are rich or you can find a generous benefactor at some institution who allows you to use their equipment.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#126
post #102
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thought of handling toxic, corrosive liquids in zero gravity is terrifying.

Not just corrosive, but calcium devouring.

Honestly. Name a hazard and it's present in at least a handful of chemicals used in ic fabrication.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Every step in fabrication has limits on its resolution beyond the resolution of the machine exposing the polymer resist. The resist has a finite thickness (often comparable to the size of the feature you are trying to make). The developer solution works downwards through the exposed resist, but also outwards at the edges (where you will have some proximity effect in the exposure). Deposited metal or insulator s…

>"This. Every step in fabrication has limits on its resolution beyond the resolution of the machine exposing the polymer resist." I didn't quite understand what you meant here. Could you elaborate on this? What are some of those limits? >"These things are very small and if we could make the corners sharper, that would remove one major barrier to making them even smaller. And then they wouldn't look so tidy anymore."…

I just meant that if you make your imperfections smaller, but then make the whole system smaller to take advantage of that, and then zoom in on it, the imperfections look just as significant, relative to the whole, as before when everything was bigger.

A few factors:

There's always some finite transition region between the fully-exposed area and the fully-unexposed area of the polymer resist area. With optical lithography, to get the smallest features possible, we're basically trying to make a shadow edge that's perfectly sharp and vertical through the thickness of the resist, by pressing a transparent mask with a pattern of thin metal on it right against the resist.

The thicker the resist, the blurrier the shadow down at the substrate. This blur takes the form of partially-exposed resist, which will develop faster than unexposed resist but more slowly than exposed resist.

With electron-beam lithography, there's the focus and control of the e-beam writer, but the sharpness and precision of the exposed pattern also depend on electron scattering and charging effects in the sample being exposed. Again, thicker resist makes the pattern less sharp as it needs a higher electron dose and will suffer more scattering.

We use a chemical to dissolve the exposed resist (there are processes where it's the unexposed resist that dissolves instead, but that's a tangent here). It takes time to dissolve the resist right down to the substrate, and as it's doing so, it's attacking the edge of the pattern too, albeit more slowly, making corners rounder and changing the vertical edge profile of the resist.

Say we get a decent pattern in our developed resist, and the next step is a liquid chemical etch. The etchant will dissolve the substrate at a certain rate. But it won't only etch straight down. If it etches equally in all directions, it will round the corners and etch under the resist, which makes the etched-away areas bigger than the pattern in the resist, with the rounded vertical profiles we often see in device cross-sectional images. This is assuming perfect resist adhesion.

A really tiny wet-etched pit has to start with a really, really tiny resist pattern and may well consist mostly of rounded undercut.

Fluid dynamics and chemistry in confined spaces often mean some areas etch faster than others and lines can get wobbly (this can be a factor in development too).

If, instead of etching, we want to deposit material like insulator or gate material, the developed edge of the resist has to have a profile that the deposited film cannot just run continuously up, or when we try to "lift it off" in the unwanted areas by dissolving the remaining resist, the patterned film will tear unevenly (at best). An overhanging resist profile is best for this. It's very difficult to lift off a deposited film that's thicker than the resist, so in general if you're depositing a film, you're starting with the challenge of a thicker resist layer.

Now imagine you've done a couple of steps on the devices already. You have perhaps some etched features, ohmic contacts, and an insulator, and now it's time to pattern some gates on top. The devices are now 3D. The resist is thicker in some places than others. The insulator tends to charge up in the electron beam. It's all the same principles again but a little more complex.

There is a plethora of techniques and chemistries to mitigate the issues encountered at every step, and you mix and match the things you are allowed to do and can afford to do and the skill level of available personnel to get the best result you can. The more automated you can get it, the better, because it's crazy how tightly every environmental variable has to be controlled to make a complex process reproducible, but in academic labs you still have students with gloves and tweezers and beakers and stopwatches, tweaking their process and device design to make something new happen.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#128
post #38
post #3

This is really fascinating. I apologize if this is a silly question but under the Fabrication section there is a pic titled "physical structure(Texas Instruments, 1997.)" My question is why do all of the components always look so "puffy" or "fuzzy" in these chip zoom-in pics? I guess I'm always surprised that such a precision process produces something with such imperfect looking shapes. Or are these slightly amorpho…

Necessarily it is operating at the limit of precision. If it wasn't blurry, you'd keep making it smaller until the blurring starts to become a problem again.

This sums it up best.

Re: Home Chip Fab

#129
Super impressive and don't miss his youtube. The first video I saw he's setting up his circa 1996 scanning electron microscope, which he bought from eBay. I thought my optical CMM was cool but now I'm envious. Time to do some dumpster diving in Shenzhen. https://youtu.be/RJXio_jpc_Y

Re: Home Chip Fab

#130
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, Zeloof got most of the stuff on Craigslist and Ebay. The big stuff is usually pretty old, and alot is hacked together (e-beam stepper) or custom built entirely (sputtering chamber, or whatever the plasma machine is called I forget).

Still, even the broken stuff is very expensive. Somewhere near the beginning he said he cut the wafers with a CNC laser. We have one of those at university (very entry level) for cutting wood and it cost over 10k. The few community driven fablabs that have lasers almost never allow people to cut their own materials because they can produce toxic gases or reflections that damage the laser optics. Even if you're the ne…

Thank you for this sanity - I can’t believe people this this kid acquired all this stuff on his own.
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