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Who Owns Huawei?

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Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#221

Post by nabla9 »

bestham wrote: post #208
nabla9 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent has been true for every big country that has successfully become a first world country after the WWII devastation. After the WWII Japan, South Korea, and Germany all had trade policies where the government coordinated closely with big export sector companies. Japan was famous for copying everything. Japanese businessmen toured western factories as potential customers with cameras, went home and build t…

Well the Japanese might have copied the product, but they surly built a better more efficient factory than the one that served as inspiration.

Not instantly. First Japanese made shitty copy factory that was behind the west and produced low quality products sold cheap. "Made in Japan" was brand for cheap knock off products for a long time. Japanese cars had a reputation of being easy to break "rice cups" even in the 80's. Gradual improvement and climbing up the value chain happened in Japan, then in South Korea and now it's happening in China.

Asian cultures have this idea that you learn from the masters by copying them. After you master the previous state of art you start to improve upon it. When you laugh at stealing copycats you fail to see the constant gradual improvement.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#222

Post by seppin »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #199
stevenhuang wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've accepted they've copied Cisco's manuals for one of their products yet question if they've copied Cisco's hardware... ? Huawei's infamous approach to "acquiring technology" is undisputed. Literally ask anyone in the industry. Look at how they've ruined Nortel. See their behaviour at trade shows, taking apart competitors equipment to take pictures of their schematics. The evidence is out there, why don't you sif…

In the same way that I accept Google copied Oracle's max function. If that's the worst that anyone can pin on a multi-billion-dollar-revenue company, it's pretty squeaky clean. The Nortel accusations are completely evidence-free. Nortel collapsed because of the bursting of the tech bubble, mixed in with a fair dose of "creative accounting." > I'm curious to know why this is all so hard for you to believe. Because the…

> Because there's zero evidence for any of it.

There's all the evidence in the world if you want to see it. I you don't, there is none.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#223

Post by edejong »

paganel wrote: post #219
jdietrich wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that this deep integration of corporations and the state is by no means unique to China - to a great extent, Deng Xiaoping's modernization in the 1980s emulated the chaebol of South Korea and the Keiretsu of Japan. Korean and Japanese business is based on tacit relationships between extremely large vertically-integrated corporations and the state while China has more overt elements of a command…

I feel that if the NSA were to ask for much of Google’s data right at this moment there isn’t anything Google could do, and I’m not even that sure that they would want to do anything. The same goes for FB. If they decide not to comply then both of these companies might risk being broken up or worse, so why risk it? The bottom line is that if you decide doing anything against the current US powers that be (like harass…

And we shouldn’t believe for a second this isn’t already happening with multiple three letter agencies.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#224

Post by [deleted] »

Engineering-MD wrote: post #195
nabla9 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent has been true for every big country that has successfully become a first world country after the WWII devastation. After the WWII Japan, South Korea, and Germany all had trade policies where the government coordinated closely with big export sector companies. Japan was famous for copying everything. Japanese businessmen toured western factories as potential customers with cameras, went home and build t…

Do you have any further information on how this was done in Germany? It’s nit something I’ve heard much about before, and is contrary to what I imagined.

[deleted]

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#225

Post by seppin »

tr3ndyBEAR wrote: post #137
sprafa wrote: post #99

There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…

To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one. Economist Mariana Mazzucato famously wrote about this and more in her book "The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Public vs. Private Sector Myths" which I highly recommend if you're interested. I think it's a little misguided to say that China's innovation is solely due to corporate espionage. States have always been effec…

> To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one

What does that have to do with what OP is talking about?

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#226

Post by seppin »

Rapzid wrote: post #184
watertom wrote: post #142

As usual with China we are focused on the wrong issue and asking the wrong questions. Who owns Huawei is irrelevant, who ultimately controls Huawei is the issue, but it’s a simple answer, the Chinese Government. I was in China on business, we were meeting the one of the largest and most successful tech companies in China. We were meeting with the Chairman/CEO and his team. Everyone was introduced except one man, ever…

It annoys me to no end how much beating around the bush there is on this topic; particularly on NPR. They have the kid gloves on and pundits that won't come out and say the obvious. "But why the concern about Huawei and not Facebook and Google". Because they are controlled by a fascist government, a point we have largely been ignoring for decades while they weren't the 2nd largest economy?! Recently they had a guy on…

It annoys me more that Trump gets credit for "standing up to China" where is is bumbling into a poorly executed trade war that will disappear when his daughter gets more under the table trademark deals for her purses.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#227

Post by dragonelite »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #170
sprafa wrote: post #99

There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…

This just completely ignores the massive sums of money Chinese companies are spending on R&D. I'm sure that China engages in industrial espionage, as do many countries, but chalking up China's development into higher-value-added economic sectors to espionage leaves out the fact that they now spend more on R&D than Japan, Germany and South Korea combined.

There comes a time when stealing and integrating IP is not worth the effort. See the 5g development thats going on, where Huawei is undisputed king from what i gathered they are outspending R&D the next two competitor combine. Off course they will now also receive a lot of patent licensing income. Now that 5g is being rolled out..

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#228

Post by blackpowder12 »

antimora wrote: post #183
sprafa wrote: post #99

There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…

This makes me think that the whole IP sharing/stealing is in the cultural fabric of Chinese business dealings. And it would be nearly impossible for Trump to fix it through his current trade negotiations.

Someone explained to me recently that it might be that part of Trump’s strategy is that by cutting off technology transfers and attacking Chinese IP theft (ie “fusion Centers”) he wants to block China’s way into high tech entirely.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#229

Post by seppin »

smacktoward wrote: post #75
philwelch wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia, according to famed Russian dissident Garry Kasparov, operates this way more as a mafia syndicate. Corruption allows the “oligarchs” to enrich themselves with the nation’s mineral resources so long as some of their power (and even money) remains at the beck and call of the don: Putin. China is different. It’s not an oil and gas oligarchy like Russia or the Gulf states. It is somewhat like the US was during the…

> China isn’t at war though Yet.

Considering the constant attacks and theft over the last 50 years, wars have been fought over less.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#230

Post by LudwigNagasena »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #203
ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

The concept of state and corporation should be separate to protect freedom is really a US phenomenon or ideal. In East Asia, the Japanese model, that later adopted by both South Korea and China, relies on the exact opposite. The government directly involves in guiding and shaping the economy. And they are smart in doing so, with the corporations being their vehicles to implement its policy and they are ones to pickin…

Similar concepts existed in Europe in various forms such as dirigisme, Fascism, Keynesian economics, the German post-war model.
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