Live data from Hacker News

Who Owns Huawei?

papers.ssrn.com

211–220 of 334 posts

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#211

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

The concept of state and corporation should be separate to protect freedom is really a US phenomenon or ideal. In East Asia, the Japanese model, that later adopted by both South Korea and China, relies on the exact opposite. The government directly involves in guiding and shaping the economy. And they are smart in doing so, with the corporations being their vehicles to implement its policy and they are ones to pickin…

> The concept of state and corporation should be separate to protect freedom is really a US phenomenon or ideal.

Not even in US this phenomenon is very strong. US protects its corporations with political and military means all the time, so I am not sure what separation you are talking about. In words there mightbbe some pretense for separation, but actions show otherwise.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#212
post #189
post #99

There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…

So govt bureaucrats are driving innovation? To the point where they create market leading mega corps. Is that the claim? Sounds like magic if you have ever met government bureaucrats.

Think about DARPA and their competitions.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#213
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to elaborate on the unity of the different elements of Chinese society you mention. Chinese institutions are all unified under a single structure, and that structure is the Communist (in name only) Party. Party members are embedded in every single important facet of society. Education, the military, the government, the private sector, it's all linked and unified by the party. Now, we can compare this structu…

I'm pretty conflicted on this topic. On the one hand, I've heard that authoritarianism is soul-crushing and I've been raised to believe that individual freedom is paramount. On the other hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasystem_transition I keep coming back to this idea of a society united by a shared telos that cuts across all racial and religious divides, acting together as a tightly-integrated social organis…

I agree the east asia approach is better if it works in the ideal situation.

The problem is everyone is not perfect. Power and wealth corrupts. And even if we are lucky to have the ideal situation at some point, no one can guarantee the next.

That's why we need separation of power: a system with checks and balances. I think as of now we don't have a equation to make the perfect system, but democracy is proven to be the best we've got so far.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#214
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent has been true for every big country that has successfully become a first world country after the WWII devastation. After the WWII Japan, South Korea, and Germany all had trade policies where the government coordinated closely with big export sector companies. Japan was famous for copying everything. Japanese businessmen toured western factories as potential customers with cameras, went home and build t…

Do you have any further information on how this was done in Germany? It’s nit something I’ve heard much about before, and is contrary to what I imagined.

Carl Zeiss AG and Schott AG are owned by a foundation managed by the science ministries of the two German states where Zeiss was founded and where it is currently headquartered, a structure which has its origins in the Zeiss firm's original incorporation in 1889.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#215

I find the other extreme, as in the USA, more dangerous. Therefore the question "Who owns the US government?" could be asked too. Someone could look into example of Boeing and the FAA. The more we learn about 737-Max and 787 Dreamliner certification the more it's obvious that Boeing is running the FAA. Another example is the FDA. Good example here is Monsanto. While it was under US ownership everything was fine. Once…

Yep, considering the concentration of wealth in few hands and the fact that most of these hands are politically well connected and fund political careers the system may not be so different. Old taxonomies for political systems can blind us for key similarities.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#216
post #116

> • We know nothing about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee. We do not know who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, or how they are selected. Well Huawei is pretty specific about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee, who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, and how they are selected. https://imgur.com/a/mEFkgna It obviousl…

As a reader of an analyst report you expect facts. As a buyer you can choose either facts or fud.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#217

As usual with China we are focused on the wrong issue and asking the wrong questions. Who owns Huawei is irrelevant, who ultimately controls Huawei is the issue, but it’s a simple answer, the Chinese Government. I was in China on business, we were meeting the one of the largest and most successful tech companies in China. We were meeting with the Chairman/CEO and his team. Everyone was introduced except one man, ever…

The scary thing about Chinese approach is that it seems actually working.

It hasn't been shown to work that well yet. Most quality innovation and research still happens in free-er countries.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#218

I find the other extreme, as in the USA, more dangerous. Therefore the question "Who owns the US government?" could be asked too. Someone could look into example of Boeing and the FAA. The more we learn about 737-Max and 787 Dreamliner certification the more it's obvious that Boeing is running the FAA. Another example is the FDA. Good example here is Monsanto. While it was under US ownership everything was fine. Once…

> Another example is the FDA. Good example here is Monsanto. While it was under US ownership everything was fine. Once it got sold to Bayer, suddenly stuff is carcinogenic.

The FDA doesn't do that for pesticides, it just makes sure quantities in foods are within EPA limits. https://www.fda.gov/food/pesticides/questions-and-answers-gl...

The EPA is the one who would make the determination you suggest, but in fact they still say the opposite: https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-04-3...

It's trial juries in the US that have been giving Bayer problems with regard to RoundUp, not regulatory agencies. Which doesn't fit with your government conspiracy theory.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#219

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

It's important to note that this deep integration of corporations and the state is by no means unique to China - to a great extent, Deng Xiaoping's modernization in the 1980s emulated the chaebol of South Korea and the Keiretsu of Japan. Korean and Japanese business is based on tacit relationships between extremely large vertically-integrated corporations and the state while China has more overt elements of a command…

I feel that if the NSA were to ask for much of Google’s data right at this moment there isn’t anything Google could do, and I’m not even that sure that they would want to do anything. The same goes for FB. If they decide not to comply then both of these companies might risk being broken up or worse, so why risk it?

The bottom line is that if you decide doing anything against the current US powers that be (like harassing a Senator from outside his house late at night) do not use any of the services coming from companies directly liable to the US authorities. The same goes if you’re in China or Russia, try not to use the services of companies directly liable to those countries’ governments if you want to vigorously protest the current political status-quo.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#220
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to elaborate on the unity of the different elements of Chinese society you mention. Chinese institutions are all unified under a single structure, and that structure is the Communist (in name only) Party. Party members are embedded in every single important facet of society. Education, the military, the government, the private sector, it's all linked and unified by the party. Now, we can compare this structu…

I'm pretty conflicted on this topic. On the one hand, I've heard that authoritarianism is soul-crushing and I've been raised to believe that individual freedom is paramount. On the other hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasystem_transition I keep coming back to this idea of a society united by a shared telos that cuts across all racial and religious divides, acting together as a tightly-integrated social organis…

> On the one hand, I've heard that authoritarianism is soul-crushing and I've been raised to believe that individual freedom is paramount.

You need to be aware that you're buying into a persistent pro-Western, anti-China propaganda.

If you survey a random sampling of Chinese citizens, the vast majority of them would in no way find the system they're living under "soul crushing". Yes, people of Xinjiang and Tibet live under brutal paramilitary rule and those issues have gained special salience in the West but they represent a tiny fraction of the Chinese population. If you happen to be a political advocate or trying to shed light on human rights, then the Chinese government is not a pleasant adversary (although again, the stories in the West focus solely on the worst cases. I know plenty of Chinese NGO workers who are fighting the good fight while playing enough by the rules that they've forged a productive partnership with the government). But, for the median Chinese person, the weight of the government rests pretty lightly on their shoulders as they just want to have economic opportunity, raise their children well and enjoy their lives.

I tell people that, in many ways, life in China is much freer than life in America. The Chinese system looks totalitarian from the outside but, from most facets, more closely resembles ungovernable anarchy. The CCP has been likened to the Eye of Sauron, overwhelming it it's power when it gazes on you but can only focus on a limited set of concerns at any one time. There's a reason why the air that the leaders breathe in Beijing continues to be extremely polluted and it's because the power the CCP has in Beijing province over factory owners in neighboring Hebei province is, by design, so limited that even Beijing Rulers can't clean up their own air.

For day to day life in China, there's a real sense of mind your own business, to each their own indifference which is both thrilling and terrifying at the same time. People renovate their houses in crazy ways and their neighbors don't care, I've seen empty concrete shells transform into functioning business in a matter of weeks as there's very little red tape you need to comply with. There's regularly blue trucks on the road that visibly fail China's emission regulations and are the cause of the bulk of the vehicle pollution but it doesn't matter because the trucking company knows how to pay off the right inspectors.

If you speak to most Chinese people, they're generally in favor of more government, not less because they feel Chinese society is too 乱 (messy) still and the government hasn't reached far enough into people's lives to provide enough of a civilizing force. That's one of the many reasons why, despite Social Credit being so derided in the West, it has largely broad support from within Chinese society.

Post reply on HN