Who Owns Huawei? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#171

Post by baddox » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #167

baddox wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that this hasn’t happened in Russia or China? Are you suggesting that no company in Russia or China has ever resisted any demand from their government?

We know Apple has. If you believe there are Russian or Chinese companies that have acted similarly, that’s fine, but to convince the rest of us the burden is on you to provide some examples.

I disagree on where the burden of proof lies. I live in the US and keep up with US tech company news, so I would expect to hear about Apple’s conflict with the US government. I know of very few Russian or Chinese companies, and I wouldn’t expect to hear domestic news about companies in those countries having conflict with their government.

Note: the original claim is that companies in those countries DO NOT attempt to defy their government for similar information requests. I believe the burden of proof for that claim is on the people making that claim. I am not claiming that this has happened in either country. I’m only stating that I will not believe the original claim without seeing some evidence.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#172

Post by high_5 » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:23 AM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #99

There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…

Well, your comment reminded me of DARPA.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#173

Post by darkhorn » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #108

all_usernames wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convince me this is any different in America.

It's just not. Look at Apple's fight with the government over unlocking the iPhone as a recent example. Can you imagine a company is Russia or China fighting like that to keep secrets away?

Pavel Durov did his best to prevent Russian government to obtain Ukrainian users' data, at Vkontakte.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#174

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

Lendal wrote: post #128

tthhuyid wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t Snowden reveal otherwise? That if the government really wanted the information, the could just send a National Security Letter using Secret Courts. Aren’t the fates of Lavabit and MCI demonstrations of that power?

Snowden didn't know everything then, and he knows even less now. Also, asking a company for data or even stealing the data through subterfuge doesn't make you an owner of that company.

Yet that's essentially what people are claiming with Huawei, even right here in this thread.

Huawei is not a state-owned enterprise, yet people are saying that operating in China, being subject to pressure from the Chinese government, makes it essentially state-owned.

Yet we know from Snowden that basically all the large American tech companies were secretly providing access to the NSA or had been pwned by the NSA. So far, there's no evidence that Huawei has spied on its customers, or that their products contain backdoors.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#175

Post by _ptgt » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:33 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #154

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

The comparison to the CIA and Mossad is rather absurd. Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices. Recently, it has also been able to produce smartphones which are arguably superior to the iPhone and cheaper. In other words, they clearly are trying to outperform their competitors in their key markets. They're growing rapidly because they'v…

This isn't really incompatible with GP's point. It's really hard to be a global telecom spy network when you're nobody wants to buy your equipment because it's overpriced and low-quality...

In fact, that would give the beneficiary government a lot of incentive to advance your interests with something like a state-sponsored IP theft program and massive subsidies

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#176

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:40 AM UTC

_ptgt wrote: post #175

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to the CIA and Mossad is rather absurd. Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices. Recently, it has also been able to produce smartphones which are arguably superior to the iPhone and cheaper. In other words, they clearly are trying to outperform their competitors in their key markets. They're growing rapidly because they'v…

This isn't really incompatible with GP's point. It's really hard to be a global telecom spy network when you're nobody wants to buy your equipment because it's overpriced and low-quality... In fact, that would give the beneficiary government a lot of incentive to advance your interests with something like a state-sponsored IP theft program and massive subsidies

If you make things up, anything is possible. How about this possibility, which is actually supported by real, known facts?

Huawei began with simple equipment they could manufacture cheaply, made money, and have invested in R&D to move up the value chain. Recognizing that Huawei is an important Chinese tech company, the Trump administration is holding it hostage in the trade negotiations. Americans are now being bombarded with piece after piece of vague innuendo about the company, insinuating (without any evidence, of course) that it's secretly a state-owned spying operation.

That's another possibility.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#177

Post by spaceflunky » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:45 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #154

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

The comparison to the CIA and Mossad is rather absurd. Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices. Recently, it has also been able to produce smartphones which are arguably superior to the iPhone and cheaper. In other words, they clearly are trying to outperform their competitors in their key markets. They're growing rapidly because they'v…

> Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices.

You mean flat out copy Cisco and then undercut them in developing markets? In the early 2000s i remember seeing a Huawei manual that was a legit photo copy of a Cisco IOS manual with just the names blocked out.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#178

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:51 AM UTC

spaceflunky wrote: post #177

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to the CIA and Mossad is rather absurd. Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices. Recently, it has also been able to produce smartphones which are arguably superior to the iPhone and cheaper. In other words, they clearly are trying to outperform their competitors in their key markets. They're growing rapidly because they'v…

> Huawei has grown because it has been able to offer similar or better networking equipment as competitors for lower prices. You mean flat out copy Cisco and then undercut them in developing markets? In the early 2000s i remember seeing a Huawei manual that was a legit photo copy of a Cisco IOS manual with just the names blocked out.

They "flat-out copied" an implementation of strcmp. Not exactly Earth-shattering. Not as serious as copying, say, the entire Java API.

Any evidence they copied Cisco hardware? Did they copy anything substantial?

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#179

Post by khuey » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

tthhuyid wrote: post #125

throw0101a wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... overestimating the authoritarian. Sure: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

For perspective, there are 2.3 million African Americans in prison.

There are 2.3 million Americans in prison.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#180

Post by antpls » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 6:02 AM UTC

bitL wrote: post #150

jtsnow wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or as Bill Browser described it: "This whole exercise was teaching me that Russian business culture is closer to that of a prison yard than anything else. In prison, all you have is your reputation. Your position is hard-earned and it is not relinquished easily. When someone is crossing the yard coming for you, you cannot stand idly by. You have to kill him before he kills you. If you don’t, and if you manage to surv…

In Russia a theft of a company comes immediately after the initial start-up phase is over and company starts to post profits. Immediately noticed by tax office, groups of lawyers zero in and simply take it away from the owner. I was told about such an example from one high-profile Russian who escaped to keep his company alive. US entrepreneurs in China had similar experience; once company took off, they had to "share…

> once company took off, they had to "share the technology" with some state companies that then produced the same thing cheaper and knocked the original company out.

Without knowing the details, this sounds more efficient and potentially fairer for the society. It allows for information and innovation to flow in the industry, rather than a single company making absurd amount of money only because they can keep it secret.

It doesn't mean wealth is automatically better distributed, but it could help.