Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet • Hacker News Board

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#401

Post by shlant » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

martius wrote: post #395

Will_Parker wrote: post #363

From https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-... "Animal agriculture is responsible for 13–18% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and less in developed countries (e.g. 3% in the USA). Fossil fuel combustion for energy and transportation is responsible for approximately 64% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and more in developed countries (e.g. 80% in the USA)." I t…

Eating less meat is not veganism. It's not even vegetarianism. It's not the first time that I'm seeing reactions about this report to focus on veganism. I don't understand where it comes from: the word "vegan" is absent from the article and the IPCC report doesn't recommend a any diet. I understand debate about this report and the impact of agriculture and breeding, but I don't understand why the debate is centered a…

it's a knee jerk reaction when people hear "eat less meat" they think "vegans". It's easier to downplay facts and argue against ghosts when you can associate what you don't like hearing with people who are commonly hated.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#402

Post by asokoloski » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

elktea wrote: post #122

throwaway3957 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a good case to be made for humans being primarily meat eaters for much of our history and only eating plants as an alternative to starving To really contribute, it would be nice if you came up with some citations to your claim.

Our stomach pH is very low, comparable to carrion eaters and some carnivores. "It is interesting to note that humans, uniquely among the primates so far considered, appear to have stomach pH values more akin to those of carrion feeders than to those of most carnivores and omnivores" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Our requirements for DHA and B12 indicate a diet rich in both - both fou…

We do require B12, but "found almost exclusively in animal foods" leaves out something important. B12 is produced by bacteria, and is found in natural, untreated water sources, as well as dirt. Our bodies are adapted to preserve B12 in a very elaborate way, (because it is a water-soluble vitamin), meaning that we can survive on the trace amounts found in untreated water and the dirt that sticks to vegetables. This is not to say that I'm recommending drinking untreated water or not washing vegetables. Vegans should absolutely supplement.

DHA can be produced by our bodies transforming ALA, which is found in plant sources: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016378271...

Like the article says, there's debate over whether this is enough, as the conversion is very inefficient. As I understand it, ALA and LA compete for the same pathway, meaning that excess of LA intake (an omega 6 fatty acid, abundant in nuts and seeds, and of course oils processed from them) will reduce our body's ability to produce DHA, so a human eating prehistoric diet would likely have a better conversion ratio than on a modern diet. Also, there's apparently evidence that if we don't eat a lot of DHA, our bodies convert more of our dietary ALA to it to compensate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20861171

But even taking all this into consideration, I'm not very sympathetic to arguments from nature. There's a big difference between saying "primal humans did X" and saying "modurn humans need to do X to be healthy". Even taking everything you said as given, there's overwhelming evidence that meat consumption is a big factor in for modern chronic health problems like heart disease and cancer. Eating whatever you can get your hands on (meat, eggs, fish, insects) makes sense when you just need enough calories to survive and reproduce, but that's not the problem now. We suffer from diseases of abundance. A plant-based diet with B12 and DHA supplementation is much healthier than an omnivorous one.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#403

Post by therealdrag0 » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

maximente wrote: post #397

Will_Parker wrote: post #363

From https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-... "Animal agriculture is responsible for 13–18% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and less in developed countries (e.g. 3% in the USA). Fossil fuel combustion for energy and transportation is responsible for approximately 64% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and more in developed countries (e.g. 80% in the USA)." I t…

well, we know that animal agriculture results in deforestation. so it's not so simple. one would need to calculate both the carbon output of animal agriculture and - crucially - the carbon that will /permanently/ not be captured via loss of land that serves as a carbon sink (Amazon rain forest is the big one) that results as demand for additional animal agriculture increases.

And cross that with our other values like morality or deforestation's contribution to animal species extinction.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#404

Post by nkozyra » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

Kaiyou wrote: post #377

nkozyra wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat. Again, this is in the scenario where we accept meat consumption is indisputably ethical. The way we get our meat is arguably a much bigger problem. > But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it? Yes?

How would you survive if everything eadible could scream? Also, not sure why the screaming part is important. Plants are alive, too and they do feel pain. They just can't express this, similar to autists.

> How would you survive if everything eadible could scream?

That would certainly change the conversation. But given that there is dubious support for plants "feeling" pain in a sentient way, I don't see much reason to entertain it.

That said, my diet is mostly fruit, nuts and seeds anyway.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#405

Post by MegaDeKay » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

martius wrote: post #395

Will_Parker wrote: post #363

From https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-... "Animal agriculture is responsible for 13–18% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and less in developed countries (e.g. 3% in the USA). Fossil fuel combustion for energy and transportation is responsible for approximately 64% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions globally, and more in developed countries (e.g. 80% in the USA)." I t…

Eating less meat is not veganism. It's not even vegetarianism. It's not the first time that I'm seeing reactions about this report to focus on veganism. I don't understand where it comes from: the word "vegan" is absent from the article and the IPCC report doesn't recommend a any diet. I understand debate about this report and the impact of agriculture and breeding, but I don't understand why the debate is centered a…

Indeed. It is not an all or nothing kind of thing. I've been eating less meat lately for a number of reasons, but I'm far from being vegan.

The Skeptical Science link doesn't seem to touch on water usage, only focusing on greenhouse gas emissions. Groundwater decline and depletion is another factor that should be kept in mind as people consider their food choices.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#406

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

corodra wrote: post #243

nkozyra wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think people will stop consuming meat if you ask them nicely. Illuminating the moral quandary of meat consumption helps. It worked for me. Nobody had to ask me nicely, they just needed to help me to think about it and be self-reflective. Even if you believe there to be ethical meat consumption (a notion I find dubious in modern life), people can reduce consumption and have a big impact. Modern commercial me…

But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat. We are omnivores after all. Hell, our hunter gatherer ancestors ate more meat than we do. Though, higher quality. It's the same with seeing a wolf eat a deer. Think they care? Same with a chimp finally catching a monkey and eating it (now those are horrifying videos to see, especially since chimps love eating monkeys). Snake to a mouse. Fox to a hare…

Circle of life, nature and all that. You know what else is natural? Rape. Our ancestors practiced a lot of rape.

Just because it is "natural" doesn't make it right. Nature is a cruel bitch, remember.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#407

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

Kaiyou wrote: post #377

nkozyra wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat. Again, this is in the scenario where we accept meat consumption is indisputably ethical. The way we get our meat is arguably a much bigger problem. > But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it? Yes?

How would you survive if everything eadible could scream? Also, not sure why the screaming part is important. Plants are alive, too and they do feel pain. They just can't express this, similar to autists.

You'd still choose plants, because otherwise you're eating animals that themselves must feed on plants. Even from a coldly mathematical perspective you cause less suffering eating plants than animals.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#408

Post by mrep » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #218

lol768 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>adult don't need to drink any milk and many don't digest it well, by the way Never understood the obsession with drinking milk on its own (though I never liked the taste of it myself either). There's plenty of calcium to be found in other sources: kale, leafy greens, almonds, fortrified grains, beans/pulses etc.

One of the strangest things to me about lunch in the Netherlands: adult men drinking milk with their meal, this meal sometimes consisting of a chocolate hundreds and thousands sandwich O_o

That is hilarious because I love to drink milk with sweet pastries and my girlfriend also thinks drinking straight milk is disgusting. It's hard to explain why, but I think the main reason is that I am not super into sweets and milk seems to counteract the sweetness. I also get heartburn frequently and milk tends to help my stomach not feel terrible like it would if I ate a sweet pastry by itself.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#409

Post by shlant » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #388

DominikPeters wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that 3% number associated with meat production in the USA or with meat consumption in the USA? If it's the former, then 3% would be an underestimate of the impact of reducing meat consumption, since the 3% doesn't include the emissions impact of feed and livestock that is imported.

That is true, but I think the point stands. As (mostly) programmers we're quick to understand and make use of practical rules like Ahmdal's law[1] for optimizing software, and know that you always start by looking at the parts that take the longest. Yet in real life we're sometimes tempted to optimize at the fringes first and ignore the obvious biggest contributing factors first. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amd…

or maybe it's possible to address multiple sources of a problem simultaneously?

I see this "not as bad as" fallacy again and again in various different discussions and it is mainly used to downplay issues by comparing them to something worse. There is absolutely no reason we cannot discuss and address one issue without it taking away from other (possibly more impactful) issues. Some issues have less impact but are easier to to solve, and some have more impact but are harder to solve. We absolutely can (and should) work to address them at the same time.

Re: Eat less meat: UN climate change report calls for change to human diet

#410

Post by leguminous » Fri, Aug 09, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

TheBeardKing wrote: post #349

saiya-jin wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> soups without meat are nearly a no-go for me This way you are missing maybe 90% of the soups of the world. Maybe try some exotic spices - I used to hate tomato soup from our school canteen with passion, but once I tried a properly spiced variant in Nepali Himalayas, things were never the same again (for the better) and I love it these days (I mean the Nepali version)

In context, I meant the lazy soups we make always contain meat and still taste good. I can put like 4-5 ingredients in an instant pot and be done. Are there similar low effort meatless soups, without hunting down exotic spices? I love good Thai and Indian curries and such, always open to new flavors at restaurants, but at home I'm just not willing to go through that kind of effort, as I kind of despise cooking but am…

I find Turkish lentil soups to be pretty easy to make:

https://ozlemsturkishtable.com/2010/11/hearty-red-lentil-sou... https://ozlemsturkishtable.com/2010/09/hearty-and-spicy-red-...

If you don't use chicken stock there isn't much of an umami component. That doesn't really bother me, but Better Than Bouillon or just a bit of Marmite can give it a little umami boost.

Indian dals can pretty easy as well (if you consider them to be soup). The simplest don't need much more than cumin and mustard seeds, which I wouldn't call exotic. There are a huge variety of them and obviously they can get much more complex.

On the slightly more complex side, I also like vegetarian chili and Tuscan white bean soup. I think chili tastes better using whole dried peppers, but if you have chili powder you can throw it together much more quickly.