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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#91

Post by wait-a-minute »

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

The problem with this argument is that going from most of south America to any part of central America would be a large economic jump. And we know that people who come into the USA illegally tend to go towards major hubs with more economic activity and opportunity. The amount of economic migration would increase for sure. And in a situation where we already turn around over 100,000 a month for attempting to cross illegally, not to mention the number we never catch, it's definitely not going to advantage American citizens to have open borders along the Mexico-USA border.

If anything it would disadvantage citizens.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#92

Post by mieseratte »

diminoten wrote: post #74
mieseratte wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't true, because of how many undocumented immigrants come in and these numbers remain positive. The articles you cite are specific to legal immigrants. > Finally, why are native people better or more deserving than the immigrants to a better life? The nation-state exists in service of its citizens, not the wider world. > despite the clear indications that the non-natives are of a net benefit to you over the…

...I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal. If you have no argument against legal immigration, then you have no argument against an open border, as it changes the policy, making immigration generally legal in its various forms. Further, a nation-state's service to its people is a geographic and…

> I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal.

You're conflating the societal value of legal immigrants, which is itself questionable at times (H1-B abuse) with those of illegal immigrants which further depress wages.

> "Americans are more deserving humans to non-Americans" and that is xenophobic

I never made a statement of who is deserving of anything. I've pointed out that nation-state exists to serve its present-day citizens, not hypothetical future citizens as you are saying.

> It's funny to me that you think the Wikipedia article titled, "The Economic Impact of Illegal Immigration" is about legal immigrants.

How could I forget the one article in your deluge.

It's a great article:

>> Immigrants, legal and illegal, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities. Households headed by illegal immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of.

Illegal immigrants are a benefit because they cannot access services that they pay for. They're a net benefit because we allow their exploitation.

> but our lower rungs already do fend for themselves.

Exactly, so let's make it worse for them by further depressing wages! They're already suffering, what's a little more?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#94

Post by rconti »

nostrademons wrote: post #15

Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

Argentina strikes me as a strong combination of "desirable" and "open". Virtually anyone can become a citizen, and it's a prosperous enough country, currency decline notwithstanding.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#95

Post by JimmySmitttz »

nautilus12 wrote: post #51

Exploiting the known demographic bias of tech (and thus hackernews) to post a story that has nothing to do with tech and everything to do with the political dogfighting in the US knowing that it will go to the top is kind of pathetic.

Libturds love exploitation and they are pros at being pathetic. Anyone with a brain in the US knows this.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#96

Post by rconti »

mindthegap wrote: post #18
cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where suddenly passable without passport, visa checks, money exchange, someone judging you, etc.. Of course this caused other problems to solve, but the general feeling of freedom and being able to go some other country and even being able to live and work there was…

I have an EU passport and have still yet to live there. I need to act fast and relocate from the US for a few years while the dream is still alive :-/

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#97

Post by lazyasciiart »

refurb wrote: post #80
cojxd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that our countries are good and wealthy is not a matter of luck though.

Not sure why this is downvoted. A good example are the capitalist versus communist countries. Two sets of countries making different choices and ending up with different results.

No baby in history has made an informed decision about which country to be born in.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#98

Post by monksy »

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

The United States has "open borders" arround the states, because it is the _United_ States. For th emost part, most of the EU has "open borders" arround their member countries. (Sometime that flexes since it's not united)

As far as the diversity in culture, I would not agree with that amongst states. Not in a way of comparing say Costa Rica to Panama or the UK to France.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#99

Post by diminoten »

mieseratte wrote: post #92
diminoten wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal. If you have no argument against legal immigration, then you have no argument against an open border, as it changes the policy, making immigration generally legal in its various forms. Further, a nation-state's service to its people is a geographic and…

> I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal. You're conflating the societal value of legal immigrants, which is itself questionable at times (H1-B abuse) with those of illegal immigrants which further depress wages. > "Americans are more deserving humans to non-Americans" and that is xenophobic I…

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise.

Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages.

Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the extent that they work, admittedly).

And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans, and yes, the viewpoint you are expressing is not only xenophobic, but also not grounded in the many many facts I've provided.

What is it really? Do you fear things different from you? Do you think of "your team" as the one that hates immigration, so you feel the need to support that view? Do you think you and your kind are superior than the people who want to live here? What is the actual reason? Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it.

Dang doesn't like it when these conversations get combative and protracted, so I'm going to stop replying. I do wish we could continue, and I think you should summarize your position in your final reply, because it's important to get this stuff out there, and honestly I think at this point the only really "wrong" thing you've done is not fully consider the consequences of your position.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#100

Post by felixfurtak »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #22
tyingq wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently partly cloudy and 48°F/9°C. Though, yeah, I imagine most days aren't like that.

The 3 months of darkness is kind of a bummer

It does have really fast internet though. There is a dedicated submarine fiber cable servicing a population of only a couple of thousand people. https://submarine-cable-map-2018.telegeography.com/
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