Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders • Hacker News Board

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#21

Post by dev_dull » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #16

dev_dull wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but it provides no social services, so there’s no government cost or burden to immigration. Similar to how the US was in its early history but contrast to how the US and Europe is now.

It is a myth that immigration creates a burden on the US government. I'm so sick of "two side"ism taking over every conversation. There is an opinion on this based in the weighing of all relevant facts, and there is an opinion about this based on the creative selection of only some facts. Decide for yourself, but what I've seen is that the full body of facts is much more supportive of the idea that immigrants are a n…

Of course it has a cost. Everything has a cost. Maybe you meant the net benefit of immigration is greater than the initial cost burden in the long term? I agree with that.

Or do you really believe that tripling the amount of software engineers in the Bay Area wouldn’t have any negative consequences?

That’s the fallacy of an open border. At the very least we moderate and control immigration to mitigate short term costs and maximize long term benefit. And also for basic precautions, such as criminal history checks and vaccinations.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#22

Post by Rebelgecko » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #20

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #3

The border is the climate.

Currently partly cloudy and 48°F/9°C. Though, yeah, I imagine most days aren't like that.

The 3 months of darkness is kind of a bummer

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#23

Post by finnjohnsen2 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

It's a dream. There is something about our luck of being born in a good and wealthy place; then close it off, hence punishing people because they happen to be born in shitty place.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#24

Post by diminoten » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

dev_dull wrote: post #21

diminoten wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a myth that immigration creates a burden on the US government. I'm so sick of "two side"ism taking over every conversation. There is an opinion on this based in the weighing of all relevant facts, and there is an opinion about this based on the creative selection of only some facts. Decide for yourself, but what I've seen is that the full body of facts is much more supportive of the idea that immigrants are a n…

Of course it has a cost. Everything has a cost. Maybe you meant the net benefit of immigration is greater than the initial cost burden in the long term? I agree with that. Or do you really believe that tripling the amount of software engineers in the Bay Area wouldn’t have any negative consequences? That’s the fallacy of an open border. At the very least we moderate and control immigration to mitigate short term cost…

It's not relevant to talk about the cost of something without also talking about over what period of time, and the myth that immigrants are a net negative to the US is completely ungrounded.

Further, the notion that something must not have any negative consequences to be a net positive is an insane one, and not how any rational thinker applies themselves to a problem.

There is no fallacy of an open border, and the short term costs are lower with immigrants than they are with native born Americans (see the myriad of articles I linked if you don't believe me). Lower short term costs, similar-to-better long term benefits (again, a well supported idea), it is a no brainer; immigrants are a better investment for Americans to make than on themselves!

Now obviously it's silly to say, "Kick out Americans, let immigrants take their place" but pretending like there's a cost to be considered for letting immigrants in is hilariously selective in its application of fiscal responsibility, when we spend so much money trying to keep immigrants out.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#25

Post by toinetoine » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #19

refurb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.

OP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.

so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.

Without debt how would the state pay the monthly income for the increasing number of people coming to collect it?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#26

Post by ericmay » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #19

refurb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.

OP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.

Let's not forget that this does cause some negative externalities. I like the idea of it overall, but I think we need fewer people on the planet (1bb max probably) and a more overall educated and wealthy population for it to be successful. You would probably also want to start with non "western" countries (including Japan etc.) because if you start with, say, the US and the EU, it would almost immediately become uncontrollable. It also doesn't factor in disruption in local communities, changing how others live their lives or how they afford to live their lives now. Some of the tensions we see now are directly linked to mixing of cultures (and subsequent local divisions). At least that's how I see it.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#27

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

jlangenauer wrote: post #7

cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

For me. I'd love to see open borders, where everyone has the freedom to move to where they can achieve their goals and dreams, rather than being restricted to the country where they happened to be born. How many Einsteins have been born in Africa, but denied the chance to make the contribution to humanity that they could have? (And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's…

[deleted]

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#28

Post by TremendousJudge » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #15

Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

>the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable

cheeky counterexample: North Korea

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#29

Post by TremendousJudge » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #22

tyingq wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently partly cloudy and 48°F/9°C. Though, yeah, I imagine most days aren't like that.

The 3 months of darkness is kind of a bummer

And the roaming polar bears

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#30

Post by megous » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #19

refurb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.

OP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.

Open borders != citizenship.