The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#261

Post by elboru » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

lobotryas wrote: post #235

FussyZeus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually my sole complaint with HN. I love the community and I understand where the moderators are coming from, but I feel that it's important to point out that the position of "keep politics out of $X" is the purest expression of privilege, and in general is an attitude that embraces the status quo, no matter how horrifying it might be for the unprivileged. I'm not saying HN should allow ALL political discus…

Not all places need to support discussion of politics. If you want to discuss the intersection of tech and politics you have many options to go to without bringing that stuff here.

Exactly this! HN for me is the safe place. It’s politics free and memes free, if someone wants all that stuff you can easily go to Twitter or any other website.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#262

Post by renlo » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #201

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

This is actually my sole complaint with HN. I love the community and I understand where the moderators are coming from, but I feel that it's important to point out that the position of "keep politics out of $X" is the purest expression of privilege, and in general is an attitude that embraces the status quo, no matter how horrifying it might be for the unprivileged. I'm not saying HN should allow ALL political discus…

There are other forums* where people can discuss those things (*as in, the word forum, not necessarily “internet forums”). It’s refreshing to have a medium like Hacker News where technology news can be discussed without the polemics endemic to other message boards.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#263

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

radcon wrote: post #227

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> HN may be an echo chamber but it is a pretty big one with a lot of voices in it. The echo chamber effect on HN is far worse than any comparable site, it's just not as obvious because there's zero transparency. At least there are tons of 3rd party sites that allow us to see censorship in real time on Reddit. No such thing exists for HN. I have no sympathy for the moderators here. I believe they moderate very arbitra…

I wonder if you're conflating that actions of the moderators with downvoting done by readers?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#264

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

dunkelheit wrote: post #214

rusk wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" both and neither. Partisan discussions, or even any kind of bitching at all ... are outright discouraged. I often step out of line in this regard and don't always agree, but I'm also confident that folk on "the other side" face the same kind of treatment. Though frustrating at times, I respect that it keeps things clean and helps cut out a lot of nonsense, of which…

Compared to e.g. twitter it may feel this way but there is definitely some discussion going on despite the efforts to keep it to the minimum. And even without directly engaging with "the other side" it is nice to know that they are still here and can provide their perspective on the other matters.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is how the majority of productive political discussions happen - around the edges of other things.

People who show up for political debate generally do so with knives drawn; you hear from the loudest people with the most solidified views, and the stuff that rises to the top is playing to the crowd instead of engaging in extended discussions. But in a rec sports team, a movie club, or a tech forum, people aren't grouped by viewpoint and vitriolic arguments are a distraction from the original cause. So those places seem to breed conversations where people take the time to hear one another and avoid breaking down into pure tribalism.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#265

Post by epc » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #192

epc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which "public accommodation law" do you refer to?

In the US, that would be title II of the 1964 civil rights act, taking the broad view of it that has developed in case law over the years. I would also support new FCC net neutrality style regulations or even new acts of Congress that strengthened this.

Any changes to include internet services under the Civil Rights act would likely run into a First Amendment challenge fairly quickly, and likely lose. Net neutrality was probably constitutional as long as it applied to physical carriers using public land (for wires) or regulated spectrum. A more likely path would be through Section 508 (the accessibility act). Even that is unlikely with the current partisan makeup of Congress and the US Supreme Court.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#266

Post by SolaceQuantum » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #259

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify why you thought this? What evidence do you have that supports this? The big thread shows that the top comment agrees that 8chan should be left alone. [0] and the comment chain shows that there seems to be something like a significant minority against 8chan, but it doesn’t appear to be a prevailing majority. 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20610395

The current top comment. IIRC it was fluctuating wildly while it was on the front page. After it's gone, comments can get reshuffled, because some people might keep replying/reading/up&downvoting (arguably those with more of a "vested interest" - likely those that disagree with the original article)

Doesn't that provide more evidence that it is not the prevailing majority, then?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#267

Post by repolfx » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

07d046 wrote: post #197

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

My complaint about political topics is that the views expressed just aren't very well informed. Comments are typically what smart engineers would write, but there is very rarely any expertise in the topic like there would be in a discussion about compilers.

Well informed in what respect? Who should would be considered well informed? People who study politics professionally, so, journalists?

I think the discussions here tend to be far more well informed than most political discussions, most of which amount to essays by people who don't even want you to be well informed.

This silly New Yorker article is a good case in point. It lists a whole host of complaints about comments here and links to exactly none of them, thus not even letting the reader check if they agree with the journalists assessment. They do of course link to the stories themselves, because those are written by journalistic allies, although the story link would be at the top of any linked HN page.

Literally, in a story about HN discussions, none of the links at the start of the story actually go to them.

I can only assume this is because so many of those discussions contain well argued, well written comments dissecting poor quality political campaigning that's posing as journalism, and Anna Wiener doesn't want her audience to be exposed to that.

And given her attitude I'm not surprised she doesn't want people to see the discussions here. Look at her list of complaints: "ill advised citations", "thought experiments abound", "humane arguments are dismissed as emotional". "Logic, applied narrowly, is used to justify broad moral positions".

So this journalist literally rejects logic and thought as a basis for reaching conclusions! I mean, ill advised citations! This is a new concept I've never encountered before. It speaks volumes about the parlous state of the New Yorker that citing sources and using logic is considered bad behaviour. Why should such people be considered better informed than us when it comes to politics?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#268

Post by danso » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

radcon wrote: post #227

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> HN may be an echo chamber but it is a pretty big one with a lot of voices in it. The echo chamber effect on HN is far worse than any comparable site, it's just not as obvious because there's zero transparency. At least there are tons of 3rd party sites that allow us to see censorship in real time on Reddit. No such thing exists for HN. I have no sympathy for the moderators here. I believe they moderate very arbitra…

Which metrics are you using the gauge the echo chamber effect, since we don't have third-party tools to gauge how much is purportedly being censored?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#269

Post by thedaemon » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

Unobtrusive is far from what the moderation here is on Hackernews. They literally have to moderate as a regular comment. Thus, being obtrusive and breaking their own rules. You might not have noticed it, but me, being a "bad" member, gets the moderation comments all the time and I definitely find them obtrusive. I'd rather just get downvotes from members, like the site should be, instead of comments from dang.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#270

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

jsperson wrote: post #236

FussyZeus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually my sole complaint with HN. I love the community and I understand where the moderators are coming from, but I feel that it's important to point out that the position of "keep politics out of $X" is the purest expression of privilege, and in general is an attitude that embraces the status quo, no matter how horrifying it might be for the unprivileged. I'm not saying HN should allow ALL political discus…

If there's one privilege that I will never feel guilty about taking advantage of, it's the ability to listen to and engage in discussions with folks smarter than I am with the overloaded concept of political belief removed.

Imagine how much better the experience of listening and engaging in discussions with those who are qualified as not simply smarter than you, but who have different lived experience, values, and/or models for ordering the Universe?