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Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#31

Post by gambiting »

mannykannot wrote: post #23
gambiting wrote: post #9

On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely disabled the keyless features until I use the key again. Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's a question I don't like to think about too much.

The Mercedes double click is specifically mentioned in the article, where someone claims a theft occurred after using it. Two questions that immediately come to mind are 1) Is there feedback that the double-click was executed correctly? 2) If so, do you still get that feedback if the mechanism for disabling the keyless feature is interfered with in some way, e.g. by jamming?

Once you double press the lock button, there is a red light that comes on the key and flashes twice. But the thing to remember here is that this only disables the keyless features on that key. If they had the spare key somewhere in the house and didn't double click on the spare, then the spare would have responded the the relay attack even if the main key was switched off.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#32

Post by jjclarkson »

forgingahead wrote: post #16

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc): I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now. I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal. Etc etc et…

I think "start-stop nonsense" is referring to push button ignitions

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#33

Post by technofiend »

snarf21 wrote: post #22
tyingq wrote: post #5

The article doesn't support the headline. I don't doubt there are vulnerabilities, but the article didn't deliver.

It is clear what the vulnerability is. A lot of these remotes are susceptible to relay attacks. The car's challenge is being relayed into the house so the fob can respond. This response is relayed back to the car. The door just opens and you can start it and drive away. It is also trivial to be this attack by adding an accelerometer to the fob. If the fob isn't moving, don't respond to the broadcast from the car. You…

>It is also trivial to be this attack by adding an accelerometer to the fob. If the fob isn't moving, don't respond to the broadcast from the car. You could also be more extreme and have the car check constantly. If fob disappears, kill the engine.

That would have to be a pretty sensitive accelerometer but you'd still end up with voodoo stuff like "I have to shake my purse while starting the car". Killing the engine if the fob disappears means you need to be polling the fob. See the lawsuits over heavy keys wearing out the ignition lock and steering column locking up to see what happens when the polling fails. Probably not a good idea, IMHO.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#34

Post by lmilcin »

forgingahead wrote: post #16

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc): I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now. I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal. Etc etc et…

I think this all happens because buyers tend to greatly overestimate value of those small features. Initially, producer will devise a new feature to differentiate from competition. Later, competition will feel pressure to keep parity and so they will also include it. It becomes a standard and nobody will sell a car without the feature. That's how you get a car laden with heaps of marginally useful features.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#35

Post by gambiting »

Gpetrium wrote: post #30
1123581321 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “the start-stop nonsense” as opposed to using pedals? I don’t have a newer car.

OP is likely talking about the system that automatically shuts down and restarts the combustion engine when you come to a complete halt. This is meant to reduce emissions and fuel comsumption.

I don't get why people are so opposed to it, I love it and I drive a Mercedes-AMG. Fantastic feature in traffic.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#37

Post by derekp7 »

nerdponx wrote: post #20
forgingahead wrote: post #16

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc): I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now. I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal. Etc etc et…

I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. What's this in regard to? Hybrid engines starting and stopping?

Hybrids are ok, since the initial acceleration is done using the electric motor, and is instantaneous. But some non-hybrid cars will stop the engine when the car stops, and start it real quick as you move your foot off the brake. This gets a bit disconcerting for us drivers that grew up with cars that would have a hard time starting back up if the engine died in an intersection, so the first few times it happens it induces a bit of mild panic.

Especially if you are at an intersection waiting for a gap in traffic, you take your foot off the brake and the engine starts, you start to ease up a bit for a better view then the engine stops again. Now there is a gap in traffic, and you want to go "right now", but if feels like there is that slight hesitation as the engine starts up again before you can start accelerating.

Now on the technical side, then the engine stops, the engine is positioned at a part of the combustion cycle so that it takes very little effort for the starter to get the engine to pop off. And the starter motor is an upgraded version, designed for the frequent use, so overall it is very reliable. But from a psychological viewpoint, it is very hard to shake the feeling that your car engine just died and you are about to get hit by an oncoming car.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#38

Post by jcims »

hugh-avherald wrote: post #18
gambiting wrote: post #9

On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely disabled the keyless features until I use the key again. Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's a question I don't like to think about too much.

They're going to give up. It's opportunistic, they're not going to risk robbery, or they'll think it's not working.

You would give up, as would most rational people. Once you’re committing felonies the primacy of rational thought could be called into question.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#39

Post by clan »

1123581321 wrote: post #25
forgingahead wrote: post #16

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc): I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now. I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal. Etc etc et…

What do you mean by “the start-stop nonsense” as opposed to using pedals? I don’t have a newer car.

Some will stop the engine while idling and the brake pedal is pressed. When it is released it will start the engine again. This is to avoid idle consumption and emissions at intersections, open bridges etc. (The stop/start is performed without you turning the key for ignition).

Or the OP simply meant he didn't like the button with the label "start/stop" present on many "keyless" systems (wireless keys) :-)

I put my money on the first. If you're not used to it - it can be quite unnerving when the engine suddenly stops at an intersection.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#40

Post by leesalminen »

gambiting wrote: post #35
Gpetrium wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is likely talking about the system that automatically shuts down and restarts the combustion engine when you come to a complete halt. This is meant to reduce emissions and fuel comsumption.

I don't get why people are so opposed to it, I love it and I drive a Mercedes-AMG. Fantastic feature in traffic.

Audi driver here, and I hate it. Especially hate that I have to push a button every time I start the car to disable it. What an awful feature. Then again, I live in rural America and traffic isn’t a frequent thing I experience.
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