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Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#11

Post by dpark »

How would the victims quoted here have any idea if their cars were opened with a relay attack? Someone grabbed your bag? It’s more likely that you forgot to lock your car than that you were a relay attack victim. Especially if you were in such a bad state that one of you literally passed out at the airport.

But also how are manufacturers still selling vulnerable cars? This seems like a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. Relay attacks have been a known vulnerability with known solutions for years.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#12

Post by gambiting »

duxup wrote: post #3

Has there ever been a lot of friction as far as how quickly someone could get into a car? Let's say it took someone 60 seconds in the past, is 10 seconds really that big of a change as far as committing the crime goes?

It's not the getting in part that's the problem, it's starting the car that is. When key-based immobilisers got introduced in the 90s the rate of car theft has dropped through the floor, because suddenly thieves couldn't start the car as easily as before. The keyless relay attack allows thieves not only to open but also to start the car within seconds, all of which without triggering the alarm.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#13

Post by wycy »

gambiting wrote: post #9

On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely disabled the keyless features until I use the key again. Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's a question I don't like to think about too much.

You can probably rest assured that that won't happen. The type of thieves interested in quickly/easily/silently breaking into your car are probably not the same as the type of thieves who are willing to turn it into a violent crime. Probably.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#15

Post by sofaofthedamned »

Both my neighbours either side of my house had their cars stolen by this on the same night. One was a Jaguar, think the other was an Audi.

They didn't touch my car even though it was newer, probably because it was a Kia. I am happy with my choice.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#16

Post by forgingahead »

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc):

I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now.

I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop.

I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal.

Etc etc etc

Sometimes manufacturers should just "version-lock" their devices and keep going with it -- a lot of customers would be happier.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#17

Post by cjrp »

dpark wrote: post #11

How would the victims quoted here have any idea if their cars were opened with a relay attack? Someone grabbed your bag? It’s more likely that you forgot to lock your car than that you were a relay attack victim. Especially if you were in such a bad state that one of you literally passed out at the airport. But also how are manufacturers still selling vulnerable cars? This seems like a class-action lawsuit waiting to…

Leaving the car unlocked wouldn't explain how they were able to start the car and drive off with it.

Car missing + all keys accounted for in your house + no smashed glass = relay attack.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#18

Post by hugh-avherald »

gambiting wrote: post #9

On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely disabled the keyless features until I use the key again. Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's a question I don't like to think about too much.

They're going to give up. It's opportunistic, they're not going to risk robbery, or they'll think it's not working.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#19

Post by kokx »

gambiting wrote: post #9

On my Mercedes key I always double click the lock button which entirely disabled the keyless features until I use the key again. Now the question is - is this actually safer? If some thieves arrive at my house to steal my car and their relay gadget doesn't work, are they going to give up, or are they going to break in and threaten me for the key? Now that's a question I don't like to think about too much.

It is one thing to steal a car. Another to break in and threaten someone. Escalating that much is a lot more dangerous. Firstly, now you might know what they look like, or at least partially. But you can also bet that the police will put more time into finding thieves that threaten people in their homes over simple car thieves. Which is definitely not what they want.

If you find a burglar in your home, the burglar is generally more likely to flee as quickly as possible, than pull a gun on you. Escalating to (the threat of) violence will likely make it harder for them, not easier.

Re: Some new cars at risk of theft by exploiting weaknesses in keyless entry systems

#20

Post by nerdponx »

forgingahead wrote: post #16

A lot of new car "innovations" remind me of my issues with the newer iPhones and Macbook Pros (no headphone jack, thinness above all else, etc): I like having a physical key to start the engine. There was never any confusion in our household about "who has the keys" like there is now. I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop. I don't need my car to broadcast a wifi signal. Etc etc et…

I despise the start-stop nonsense. Let me use the pedals to start and stop.

What's this in regard to? Hybrid engines starting and stopping?

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