Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#121

Post by username90 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #88

romaaeterna wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The small numbers of African-origin minorities in Scandinavian countries commit more crime per capita than those in the United States. (The same is also true internally within the Unites States when differentiating between northern and southern states). I'm afraid that Scandinavian models haven't solved the minority crime problem, but only make it worse. Sometimes far worse, as in Oslo, etc.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180508/why-sweden-doesnt-keep-stat... > It doesn't take much effort to find articles claiming to have the 'truth' about the relationship between immigrants or refugees and Swedish crime. Yet the real truth is that there is no up-to-date public data on the ethnic background of criminals in the country, with existing figures more than a decade old. Do you have reputable citations for Oslo/Norw…

Last time Sweden released an official study they were very over-represented. The numbers for the following groups are the rate compared to natives, 1 means that they would commit the same amount of crime as Swedes:

Västasien (West Asia) 3.7

Nordafrika (North Africa) 4.6

Östafrika (East Africa) 3.5

Övriga Afrika (Rest of Africa) 5.2

(The numbers written in the study had native swedes at 0.8 so I multiplied these numbers by 1.25 to normalize it)

https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012697/2...

Nothing since then has shown that the rates have changed, so you can assume that they are still valid. Everybody knows that these groups are over-represented and that accepting immigrants increases crime, that isn't really a part of the debate. You can argue why they are over-represented, such as poverty and discrimination, but not that there are more criminals among them.

Anyhow, wrt America, even the worst right wing propaganda doesn't show our African immigrants committing as much crime as African Americans, so the Swedish model seems to work at least somewhat.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#122

Post by thatcat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #93

thatcat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this not universal in US? If police on scene don't file charges or arrest anyone, it's a "race to the court house" with the first person to file having priority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_courthouse

Not only is it "not universal", it's vanishingly uncommon. A small handful of states permit "private prosecution" of crimes, with very significant limitations. It certainly can't be used to shut down the victim in the fashion you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_Sta... The "race to the courthouse" article you linked doesn't even specify which country it applies to, and cites zero sou…

Yea INAL, but the race to the court house was the way a lawyer explained it to me. This is in fact how it works in TN. It's not a private prosecution, it's public.

https://www.marylandcriminalattorneyblog.com/carroll_county_...

"This is because without a weapon or serious injury the only crime would that could be charged is second degree assault which is a misdemeanor in Maryland. The police can only arrest in misdemeanor cases if they actually witness the events. Otherwise, the police are supposed to simply write a report and advise the combatants as to the procedures for filing charges against one another. "

Re: here because out of reply subthreads:

I'm not mixing the two up. I called the police after having my jaw broken in a one sided assault and filed a report. The assailant went to the court house and filed charges officially and one week later I was charged with assault. This was leveraged by the public prosecutor to prevent me from filing civil and criminal charges against the assailant as terms for myself not being prosecuted or subject to a trial by jury. The only people who seem to be aware of this situation are lawyers and law-savvy repeated violent offenders who use it to escape prosecution.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#123

Post by CompanionCuuube » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #111

mieseratte wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice." This one is the original marihuana legislation, predating Nixon's war on drugs, right? > "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either a…

> Adverse impact, problematic enough, does not imply something was made with racist intent. It shows that the intent continues to be racist. This disparity is ongoing, not historical; if it's truly not racist, why not bring the amount of possession charges in line with usage?

So gun control is racist? You can't tell the intent of something by the impact alone.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#124

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

qekbg wrote: post #7

Ballas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, it seems that the way the police in the US react is the consequence of interaction with the public. In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.

It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.

To paraphrase Chris Rock, some jobs can’t have bad apples. No one would accept it if the Delta CEO said “most of our pilots are good people, some just like to fly into mountains every now and then.”

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#125

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

steveeq1 wrote: post #96

soVeryTired wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure: I think there's a cultural problem with American policing. I get the sense that US police expect immediate compliance with their Any failure to comply is met with escalation of force rather than with reason. This is the "Ask, Tell, Make" philosophy of policing. Contrast this with the principles of policing by consent [0] that define the ideals (though not necessarily the reality) of policing in the U…

You obviously don't live in america then. Police are heavily trained to DE-escalate the situation. I know, I'm a person of color and the few times I've had to deal with the police, they were polite, courteous and professional. The thing is is survivorship bias often shows in the media. most police encounters are not reported in the media because it's common and everyday. But the very few that turn into a big producti…

Are you a “person of color” or are you Black? How tall and big are you? I’m Black and 5 foot 5. No one sees me as a threat. My step son is s big guy who immediately is seen as threat until he starts talking - he’s lived in the burbs all of his life.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#126

Post by CompanionCuuube » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

stefanfisk wrote: post #94

steveeq1 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make the argument that there's an irrational fear of police in our society because of availability bias.

but can you back that argument with any credible sources?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0010028573...

Availability: A heuristic for judging frequency and probability

edit:

> The reality of the availability bias isn't in question, it's whether or not people's belief about police brutality is accurate

It would be nice to have some objective evidence showing why this example is a special case immune to availability bias.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#127

Post by nradov » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #52

DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

The US is a violent place even without guns. The murder rates for non-gun violence are still astronomical compared to other developed countries. It's likely always been violent place, so how does that change?

That is highly misleading. If you look at the overall per capita rates of violent death since 1776 it's clear that on average Europeans are far more violent than Americans. Limiting the count of deaths to just those that meet the legal definition of "murder" is disingenuous.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#128

Post by username90 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

dariusj18 wrote: post #30

AS126 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems. Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

I think it's a vicious cycle. Many countries with less "crime" require less police, therefore they can be more selective about the people they hire and spend more money to train them. In the US, policing and prison are huge industries, and at a certain point there are not enough qualified individuals to go around. Now imagine the TSA and Border patrol and many other government security institutions. So many cast offs…

Another point is the kind of work police has to deal with. In a low crime country police almost never has to deal with criminals with weapons or guns, so they never have to fear for their lives. This means that people who don't like violence don't mind joining the police. However in USA where police have to engage in lots of violence just to do their job the people who want to join the police are very different.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#129

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

thatcat wrote: post #122

ceejayoz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is it "not universal", it's vanishingly uncommon. A small handful of states permit "private prosecution" of crimes, with very significant limitations. It certainly can't be used to shut down the victim in the fashion you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_Sta... The "race to the courthouse" article you linked doesn't even specify which country it applies to, and cites zero sou…

Yea INAL, but the race to the court house was the way a lawyer explained it to me. This is in fact how it works in TN. It's not a private prosecution, it's public. https://www.marylandcriminalattorneyblog.com/carroll_county_... "This is because without a weapon or serious injury the only crime would that could be charged is second degree assault which is a misdemeanor in Maryland. The police can only arrest in misdem…

The link you cite is for Maryland, which is one of the few states to permit private prosecution. As is common, it comes with limitations:

https://www.enlawyers.com/1836/attorney-information/maryland...

> In most counties prosecutors review the charges before they are formally filed.

I can't find any indication TN permits these sorts of private prosecutions.

I suspect you're mixing up filing charges with making a complaint or police report. Being the first to reach out to police/prosecutors may count in your favor (credibility-wise, not on a raw legal level) as the alleged assailant filing their own complaint afterwards looks more like retaliation for fairly obvious reasons.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#130

Post by overthemoon » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

CompanionCuuube wrote: post #126

stefanfisk wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but can you back that argument with any credible sources?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0010028573... Availability: A heuristic for judging frequency and probability edit: > The reality of the availability bias isn't in question, it's whether or not people's belief about police brutality is accurate It would be nice to have some objective evidence showing why this example is a special case immune to availability bias.

The reality of the availability bias isn't in question, it's whether or not people's belief about police brutality is accurate and if not, why it isn't. Sure, the AB is real. It MAY be a factor in why people think black people are killed in proportionally higher numbers than people of other races, but what's relevant is whether or not it's actually happening.