Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

theoutline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 153 posts

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#91

Post by Retra »

geggam wrote: post #46
DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

Violence is what every govt threatens its citizens with to ensure peace ( irony no ? ) What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt. Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.

I'm going to quote a previous comment of mine here, because I think your rhetoric is shallow:

>Violence is usually too far removed from the relevant abstractions. It's not difficult to see violence behind everything, because rules don't mean much if they aren't enforced, and it's all too easy to conflate violence with a threat of violence, or a threat of force with a threat of violence, etc.

> But that's not a very useful perspective; a well-functioning society filters violence so that it is only applied when things go seriously awry, and most of us should only ever threatened by minor inconveniences. To focus on violence is to be reductive; it is like trying to talk about programming in terms of electromagnetic laws -- yes, computers ultimately run on electricity, and social powers are ultimately enforced through violence, but the abstractions we've built atop those facts are actually very relevant and useful.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#92

Post by steveeq1 »

bena wrote: post #82
overthemoon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bullshit. https://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime... Starting with the most obvious point, the Crime Statistics Bureau of San Francisco doesn't exist.

"But don't you understand, it reinforces my worldview and tells me that my irrational fear of minorities isn't just racism."

You can make the argument that there's an irrational fear of police in our society because of availability bias.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#93

Post by ceejayoz »

thatcat wrote: post #87
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What jurisdiction do you live in that permits people to file criminal charges on their own authority at a court house?

Is this not universal in US? If police on scene don't file charges or arrest anyone, it's a "race to the court house" with the first person to file having priority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_courthouse

Not only is it "not universal", it's vanishingly uncommon.

A small handful of states permit "private prosecution" of crimes, with very significant limitations. It certainly can't be used to shut down the victim in the fashion you describe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_Sta...

The "race to the courthouse" article you linked doesn't even specify which country it applies to, and cites zero sources.

It appears to refer to https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/race-to-the-courthouse/, which isn't about criminal prosecutions at all. It's about certain civil law situations.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#94

Post by stefanfisk »

steveeq1 wrote: post #92
bena wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But don't you understand, it reinforces my worldview and tells me that my irrational fear of minorities isn't just racism."

You can make the argument that there's an irrational fear of police in our society because of availability bias.

but can you back that argument with any credible sources?

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#95

Post by saagarjha »

ceejayoz wrote: post #81
saagarjha wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When a single mom can't buy her kid a bicycle because the last 3 have been stolen out from under him by addicts looking to score That seems like burglary/robbery rather than a drug-related offense.

How would a burglary intended to obtain money to buy drugs not be "drug-related"?

Does intent matter when you commit a crime? Do you get a different sentence if you use the money to buy drugs rather than food?

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#96

Post by steveeq1 »

soVeryTired wrote: post #66
qekbg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.

I'm not so sure: I think there's a cultural problem with American policing. I get the sense that US police expect immediate compliance with their Any failure to comply is met with escalation of force rather than with reason. This is the "Ask, Tell, Make" philosophy of policing. Contrast this with the principles of policing by consent [0] that define the ideals (though not necessarily the reality) of policing in the U…

You obviously don't live in america then. Police are heavily trained to DE-escalate the situation. I know, I'm a person of color and the few times I've had to deal with the police, they were polite, courteous and professional.

The thing is is survivorship bias often shows in the media. most police encounters are not reported in the media because it's common and everyday. But the very few that turn into a big production get reported because it gets ratings. So through survivorship bias, confirmation bias, and availability bias, the problem seems bigger than it actually is.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#97

Post by ceejayoz »

saagarjha wrote: post #95
ceejayoz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would a burglary intended to obtain money to buy drugs not be "drug-related"?

Does intent matter when you commit a crime? Do you get a different sentence if you use the money to buy drugs rather than food?

Intent absolutely matters - think murder vs. involuntary manslaughter, or even first degree versus second degree murder. A lot of legal definitions of crimes even include the statement "with intent to..." - "drug possession with intent to distribute" is a good example.

It's also completely besides the point here, as we're discussing the statement:

> There was also definitely communities overran with drug related crime that were desperate for help.

arguing that these sorts of drug-related crimes motivated some communities to embrace "hard on crime" attitudes.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#98

Post by geggam »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #72
geggam wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All victimless crimes. Oddly enough in AZ you are supposed to have a victim for a crime yet you can be charged with criminal speeding and there be no victim.

Threatening the public is not victimless. Not sure where folks are coming up with that. I can fire a gun at a crowd, and if it doesn't hit anybody, its 'victimless'. Not a crime?

so lets follow that logic... you are driving a car down the street and because you could screw up and hit me you are attempting murder and should be charged ?

You are so far into the wrong here its sad... not only sad but the fact you cant see it is scary for the future of this nation

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#99

Post by geggam »

Retra wrote: post #91
geggam wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is what every govt threatens its citizens with to ensure peace ( irony no ? ) What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt. Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.

I'm going to quote a previous comment of mine here, because I think your rhetoric is shallow: >Violence is usually too far removed from the relevant abstractions. It's not difficult to see violence behind everything, because rules don't mean much if they aren't enforced, and it's all too easy to conflate violence with a threat of violence, or a threat of force with a threat of violence, etc. > But that's not a very u…

Now you are saying a specific group of people get to define acceptable violence.

This is insane... who defines that group ? Are all govts legitimate ? Do all govts get to define violence ?

There is no ethical violence or all violence is ethical because your reasons arent more valid than someone elses

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#100

Post by mieseratte »

edent wrote: post #57
celticmusic wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivation for the war on drugs is not borne out of racism, but a combination of greed and public safety concern.

"Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice." "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana…

> "Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice."

This one is the original marihuana legislation, predating Nixon's war on drugs, right?

> "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities."

When was this originally published? I keep seeing it in a 2016 magazine, which is a bit odd given how groundbreaking a revelation it is. Especially considering the quote was collected 22 years prior, and the man died 17 years prior. Was this around and just not well known at the time?

> "In 2013, the ACLU published a report titled "The War on Marijuana in Black and White". The report found that despite marijuana use being roughly equal between blacks and whites, blacks are 3.73 times as likely to be arrested for marijuana possession."

Adverse impact, problematic enough, does not imply something was made with racist intent.

Post reply on HN