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Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

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Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#41

Post by DoreenMichele »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Internationally, countries that export illicit drugs are countries that have a shortage of legal exports and desperately need a cash income. I think if you want to talk about The Drug War in the US, you need to talk about institutional racism and its roots in a history of slavery. There are myriad ways in which the African American community has been victimized in the US and it's all interrelated. You can't really isolate "this one thing."

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#42

Post by iguy »

chmod775 wrote: post #17
b_tterc_p wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and locking them away. This sounds false to me outside of some Western European areas but I don’t have data to support it

Well here's some data to support my side of the argument. Note that this chart uses a logarithmic scale: https://i.ibb.co/gMtDhgQ/b.png Full PDF: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-stat... Sadly I couldn't find the number of arrests made in any useful comparison, but US police have a policy of "taking people in" for almost any offense, so I'd expect it to roughly match that.

Can you explain what you see in this graph? I'm baffled, I don't know what "suspects" means, nor why Canada has 10x as many as Mexico. (Presumably the x-axis is police per million population, or similar.)

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#43

Post by sandworm101 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

>> If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army... then you have to start with the Drug War.

Go back much further than that. Go back to the civil rights movement. Go back to jim crow. The history of the American war on drugs was born of racism and continues its birthright. That is the real sticking point, the source of the high emotions surrounding drugs. The drug war is a proxy for much more difficult issues.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#44

Post by sandworm101 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #41
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Internationally, countries that export illicit drugs are countries that have a shortage of legal exports and desperately need a cash income. I think if you want to talk about The Drug War in the US, you need to talk about institutional racism and its roots in a history of slavery. There are myriad ways in which the African American community has been victimized in the US and it's all interrelated. You can't really is…

>> ... countries that export illicit drugs are countries that have a shortage of legal exports and desperately need a cash income.

I don't think China lacks export opportunities, yet is the source of most all of the worlds fentanyl-type drugs. Up until a couple years ago Canada was a huge source of pot for the US. Canada has a thriving export market. Mexico too.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#45

Post by merpnderp »

sandworm101 wrote: post #43
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

>> If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army... then you have to start with the Drug War. Go back much further than that. Go back to the civil rights movement. Go back to jim crow. The history of the American war on drugs was born of racism and continues its birthright. That is the real sticking point, the source of the high emotions surrounding drugs. The drug war is a proxy for much…

There was definitely racism in the passing and enforcing of these laws.

There was also definitely communities overran with drug related crime that were desperate for help. When a single mom can't buy her kid a bicycle because the last 3 have been stolen out from under him by addicts looking to score, she's going to ask the her elected representatives for help.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#46

Post by geggam »

DanBC wrote: post #32
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

Violence is what every govt threatens its citizens with to ensure peace ( irony no ? )

What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt.

Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#48

Post by geggam »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39
jadell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always felt weird to me that most of the rationale for policing drug use is based on preventing the crimes a user might commit while on drugs, rather than just the prosecuting the crimes they actually do commit while on drugs. "You can't do heroin because you'll get addicted and might steal in order to fuel your addiction." "But I haven't actually stolen anything yet, so what crime has been committed?" Are there a…

Speeding. Public intoxication. Keeping an attractive nuisance.

All victimless crimes.

Oddly enough in AZ you are supposed to have a victim for a crime yet you can be charged with criminal speeding and there be no victim.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#49

Post by yardie »

slowhand09 wrote: post #26

One inaccuracy in the article refers to the Freddy Gray case in Baltimore. It refers to "Police opposed the prosecutions, and many began to do their jobs passively in protest." Police were ordered to stand down. From.the.mayor's.office. Also, the culture there is still very much not to snitch. Most victims there know their killers. Many are killed in view of witnesses, and others know exactly who killed who. But they…

Baltimore is its own kind of nuts. Where every man has to be for themself. You have the gangs looking for you, you have the police looking for you, and then you have the corrupt police working for gangs looking for you. The safest thing you can do is keep your mouth shut. Whatever you say is eventually going to find it’s way back to someone who wants to hurt you.

I blame this on the war on drugs. The risk and reward from the drug trade has gotten so high that a human life isn’t worth much. Distributing pays well. Getting a life sentence from being caught is the risk. So, in a dealers mind, taking life to prevent theirs from being taken is justified.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#50

Post by drawnwren »

DanBC wrote: post #32
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

I agree with this line of reasoning as well. Drug trafficking is punishable by death in Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. Other East Asian countries _highly_ criminalize drugs and have significantly lower crime rates along with significantly higher rates of police reporting.
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