Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

theoutline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 153 posts

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#21

Post by AS126 »

chmod775 wrote: post #2

Some (not all) of US police are uniquely unqualified to deal with this. You need to be able to show some compassion in this job and try to actually help people instead of just being a squad of gun wielding weirdos who show up to cart any suspicious people away, guns blazing. In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and lockin…

Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems.

Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#22

Post by rjf72 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

What you're saying is true but only in a society where you simply allow all drugs. Ideologically I am of this inclining since I don't think the government has a right to determine what people should or should not be able to put in their own body, but at the same time I also think this is a path that is detrimental for society. A few factors you don't hit on:

- many drugs are addictive and this can lead to addicts turning to crime to try to fuel their addiction. yes we could offer more public support for such things, but these tend to be lifestyle choices that people revert to over and over.

- some drugs themselves can have a strong connection with abnormally violent and dangerous behavior - for instance, PCP.

- other drugs can have potentially extreme side effects even with minimal usage. olney's lesions / brain lesions are but one example. of course the same is true of e.g. alcohol, but the quantities involved are quite different.

- any drug that is illegal will result in a black market. this black market tends to trend towards violence. there is potentially big money to be made in drugs and criminal enterprises tend to attract criminals who don't just constrain their violation to their product.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#23

Post by RHSeeger »

qekbg wrote: post #7
Ballas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, it seems that the way the police in the US react is the consequence of interaction with the public. In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.

It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.

A friend of mine explained his viewpoint as... Sure, there's only a few bad apples doing horrible things. But then there's a LOT of cops, and their union, that help/stand up for those bad apples. If you're not taking a bribe, but you are actively looking away when your partner is; you're the bad guy. There's the well known blue wall of silence, and everyone that makes up that wall is part of the problem.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#24

Post by onemoresoop »

qekbg wrote: post #7
Ballas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, it seems that the way the police in the US react is the consequence of interaction with the public. In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.

It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.

Ok, some are great, but when you see that the ‘bad guys’ in the police face no consequences for their actions, the police force looses respect in the eyes of the public. And that’s a normal reaction. But they can earn it back, though it seems, through their training and instructions, they quite often prefer intimidation over respect.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#25

Post by onemoresoop »

qekbg wrote: post #18
mchanson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you certain of this? I do not think Police deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point.

I don't know how many cops are there in the US but thinking most of them are psychopaths is absurd.

Nobody thinks that to my knowledge, or at least thats not the general opinion about cops.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#26

Post by slowhand09 »

One inaccuracy in the article refers to the Freddy Gray case in Baltimore. It refers to "Police opposed the prosecutions, and many began to do their jobs passively in protest." Police were ordered to stand down. From.the.mayor's.office. Also, the culture there is still very much not to snitch. Most victims there know their killers. Many are killed in view of witnesses, and others know exactly who killed who. But they wont talk about it. They fear and distrust each other and the police.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#27

Post by c3534l »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

The militarization of the police has come primarily from the militarization of criminals. Before the Valentine's Day Massacres, criminals had better cars and weapons than the police, allowing them to fight and win against the police. Prior to the LA shooting spree, police had no way to fight a criminal armed with assault weapons and no training on how to do so without endangering the public. When I lived in St. Louis, once the riots started to happen the police got tanks and other military equipment from out of state and then never let go of them (massive over-reaction to protestors that were not anywhere near as rough as you saw on TV, but that's what happened).

I think you're right that the drug war was a factor, but I think you're wrong in why it was a factor. It's not some arbitrary distinction between what you deem to be a "victimless" crime, as if there was never such a thing in the 1700s and 1800s. The reason is that it's an arms race. The police always want to be better equipped and trained at dealing with a situation than they people they're up against. If it's unarmed protestors, they want organized formations and tear gas. If it's a drug cartel with assault weapons, the police want tanks and helicopters.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#29

Post by jakelazaroff »

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Criminalizing victimless behavior prevents enforcement of violent/property crime too. Would a prostitute report being raped by a john? Maybe, but it seems unlikely when they have to worry about getting thrown in the system themselves.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#30

Post by dariusj18 »

AS126 wrote: post #21
chmod775 wrote: post #2

Some (not all) of US police are uniquely unqualified to deal with this. You need to be able to show some compassion in this job and try to actually help people instead of just being a squad of gun wielding weirdos who show up to cart any suspicious people away, guns blazing. In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and lockin…

Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems. Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

I think it's a vicious cycle. Many countries with less "crime" require less police, therefore they can be more selective about the people they hire and spend more money to train them. In the US, policing and prison are huge industries, and at a certain point there are not enough qualified individuals to go around.

Now imagine the TSA and Border patrol and many other government security institutions. So many cast offs.

Post reply on HN