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New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

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Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#191

Post by eeZah7Ux »

hanniabu wrote: post #48

This is a great use case for crypto. You can earn by supporting the network and spend it to use the network. It helps the incentive layer. Those supporting the network can pay for support personnel as they grow, or there can be a network tax that goes towards this. You can also decentralize the support personnel by rewarding people that successfully answer tickets and offer a premium for when questions are answered w…

"crypto" means cryptography, not cryptocurrencies. Please stop appropriating the word.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#192

Post by dustfinger »

cortesoft wrote: post #161
dustfinger wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't making the assumption that their mesh was based on TCP. I should really just read the article and linked materials, but I am trying to ingore that temptation since I am supposed to be working :-P

I mean, it is being used to access the internet......

An application can be designed to communicate over more than one protocol. There is more than one transport protocol used on the internet. For example, the UDP protocol may be used for for P2P / mesh networks. Applications that support UDP may also support TCP. TLS runs "on top of some reliable transport protocol (e.g., TCP). UDP is not a reliable transport protocol. There are also transport protocols other than TCP / UDP [1].

Anyway, if you are making your own mesh that does not require you to have access to an ISP, then maybe you make that mesh over something other than IP. If you did use something other than IP, that would not prevent any of the nodes from including IP in their networking stack. In that scenario, a human user of the mesh might believe that they are completely off the grid / internet, but surprise, all their traffic or leaked metadata is actually being aggregated over the internet because one of the nodes is connected.

I mainly brought this up because it popped into my head and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion. Also, because I have thought about making a distributed mesh network that does not use IP where nodes communicate via HAM radio.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_layer

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#193

Post by dpatru »

stefan_ wrote: post #189
woah wrote: post #66

Shameless plug: My company Althea ( https://althea.net ) is making router firmware that makes it easy to people to set up incentivized mesh networks in their communities. It allows routers to pay each other for bandwidth which means that everyone hosting a node earns money for the packets they forward. We have 2 networks live, one in rural Oregon and one in Medellin, Colombia. Also, 4 more networks people are current…

It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. Ironically I went back to the 2015 thread and found much the same "shameless plug", minus the Blockchain.

> It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup.

You're implying that there is something shameful with providing a market for connectivity which allows for people who can't afford to work for free to participate. What is shameful about this?

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#194

Post by MarcysVonEylau »

woah wrote: post #66

Shameless plug: My company Althea ( https://althea.net ) is making router firmware that makes it easy to people to set up incentivized mesh networks in their communities. It allows routers to pay each other for bandwidth which means that everyone hosting a node earns money for the packets they forward. We have 2 networks live, one in rural Oregon and one in Medellin, Colombia. Also, 4 more networks people are current…

It was a nice idea until the website mentioned block chain...

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#195

Post by dustfinger »

na85 wrote: post #125
dustfinger wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't making the assumption that their mesh was based on TCP. I should really just read the article and linked materials, but I am trying to ingore that temptation since I am supposed to be working :-P

I think it's very poor etiquette to make assumptions about the contents of the article while advertising the fact you haven't read the article.

By that line of reasoning it might be good etiquette to make assumptions about an article and the contents of an article provided that one does not include a disclaimer about not reading the article :-P

I did make the disclaimer that I have not read the article for the sake of transparency and humility. I probably will later this week, but the only spare time I have has been spent responding to this thread :-P

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#196

Post by nz21 »

woah wrote: post #141
nz21 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading https://althea.net/how-it-works and I don't quite understand one aspect: The article says there's a "backhaul" that connects the althea network to the internet. I understand this means the community will then need just one subscription to the internet, as opposed to n, so it's cheaper. But doesn't this mean that every user in the network will experience vastly slower connection than if they had thei…

It's a commercial subscription. The fact is, any residential ISP is selling the same connection to the internet to 20-100 subscribers. This is known as the oversale ratio. Since nobody is using the whole connection continuously, people experience the advertised speeds most of the time. The backhaul connections that ISPs resell (and that are sold into Althea networks) are usually around 10x the price of a residential…

thanks for clarifying! I was under the assumption that, in a normal setting where 'n' people have subscribed to an ISP, there would 'n' backhauls, one for each subscriber.

Turns out that isn't quite the case...

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#197

Post by agent008t »

avodonosov wrote: post #60

What is impressive here, that it's a "mesh" or that it's a volunteer for driven? Years ago all Minsk was covered by volunteer maintained local ethernet networks, I was accessing internet through one. Today most of them are bought out by commercial providers, some turned into providers themselves.

In Russia it was the same. Because the existing infrastructure (i.e. phone lines) was so poor, back in early 2000s people were just connecting the apartment blocks in their communities with ethernet cables.

You could then pay for Internet traffic or enjoy local neighbourhood network resources for free. People would build local websites, chat rooms, message boards, fileshares, gaming. It was pretty good for the time and I was surprised to find that in the UK/US there had not been such a development, perhaps because of better pre-existing infrastructure.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#198

Post by vidarh »

thinkloop wrote: post #151
jkilpatr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spec…

> NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe? A barrage of questions, but I'm quite interested!

You can get connections suitable for backhaul pretty much anywhere as long as you are within reach, or prepared to pay for, a copper or fibre connection to an exchange. It just costs more.

I'm not up to date on prices.

Backhaul is 'just' another connection but without the same contractual restrictions as you'll usually find on normal subscriber connections.

You'll find it used in at least two different ways: as a synonym of transit to talk about a way for your ISP to connect to any other ISP via the provider they get it from, and as a means of having an access provider forward last mile traffic to one or more central locations.

But in both cases it just suggests that you have agreed with a provider to forward traffic for your users on your behalf.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#199

Post by robert_foss »

dpatru wrote: post #193
stefan_ wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. Ironically I went back to the 2015 thread and found much the same "shameless plug", minus the Blockchain.

> It is quite shameless, here is an awesome volunteer run basic service project, and this is a Blockchain rent-seeking VC startup. You're implying that there is something shameful with providing a market for connectivity which allows for people who can't afford to work for free to participate. What is shameful about this?

Taking attention from a free community project to market your for profit company certainly isn't a purely altruistic thing to do.
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