New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#151

Post by thinkloop » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:03 AM UTC

jkilpatr wrote: post #110

corey_moncure wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.

> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spec…

> NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul

Why/how is it free? How much is it typically? Do all/most cities have "backhaul" easily available? Isn't backhaul owned by ISPs as well and basically like a fat pipe?

A barrage of questions, but I'm quite interested!

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#152

Post by thinkloop » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

na85 wrote: post #129

jkilpatr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spec…

>NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.

I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#153

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:12 AM UTC

chadwittman wrote: post #87

woah wrote: post #66

Shameless plug: My company Althea ( https://althea.net ) is making router firmware that makes it easy to people to set up incentivized mesh networks in their communities. It allows routers to pay each other for bandwidth which means that everyone hosting a node earns money for the packets they forward. We have 2 networks live, one in rural Oregon and one in Medellin, Colombia. Also, 4 more networks people are current…

Love the project! Why does my intuition suggest big ISPs are going to try to regulate this out of existence in the US. It's depressing.

[deleted]

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#154

Post by na85 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:12 AM UTC

thinkloop wrote: post #152

na85 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. I feel like this is the key differentiator between community mesh projects that succeed and those that don't. At the end of the day, without backhaul you're just saturating a few donors' residential bandwidth.

I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?

In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection?

Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#155

Post by jnathsf » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:17 AM UTC

thwythwy wrote: post #15

tiles wrote: post #4

Are there similar efforts to follow in other cities? e.g Boston, SF

Comcast & AT&T cast SF's into oblivion: https://www.fastcompany.com/90319916/the-anti-competitive-fo...

I led this project - it died with the late Mayor Ed Lee. An interim Mayor doesn’t have the political capital to lead something of this scale.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#156

Post by thinkloop » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:18 AM UTC

na85 wrote: post #154

thinkloop wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought mesh networks were peer-to-peer? If people's connections to the internet are single pre-determined nodes, isn't that more like mini ISPs?

In any given mesh of peers, or for example the NYC mesh, suppose I am a mesh client with no ISP. How do I get internet without using another mesh client's ISP connection? Edit: can't reply because rate limited or something. My point is that relying on good will doesn't scale.

I thought mesh is supposed to involve hopping from neighbor to neighbor - not everyone directly connected to an ISP. What is the difference then besides that it is volunteer-run with donated bandwidth?

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#157

Post by langitbiru » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:24 AM UTC

jkilpatr wrote: post #114

thepete2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds awesome. How do the payments work?

I explain it in some detail here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EKbgShyLw Essentially we use Eth because we don't really need a 'cryptocurrency' as much as we need an api for cash where very small payments (10c) are practical. For reasons that I explain in the presentation the key simplifying assumption of low fee transactions makes a simple billing scheme (pay per forward) work.

Yes, one added value that people often miss from Ethereum is programmable money. Ethereum gives you a nice API of money.

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#158

Post by leesalminen » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:25 AM UTC

sq_ wrote: post #31

leesalminen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My home internet in the Rocky Mountains, USA is delivered via mesh-WiFi provided by one of my neighbors. It's a really cool system actually- the towers are battery/solar operated and some can only be accessed via horseback. Covers ~500 homes. 5mbps down/2mbps up is what I get for $79/month, and I've learned to live with it. The only other option is satellite internet with restrictive usage caps. We used to have anoth…

Does your connection maintain 5mbps/2mbps consistently? Or do you experience ups and downs in terms of speed?

It’s mostly consistent except for 7-9PM weekdays. I set up some special QoS rules that I can toggle on/off on my LAN to make my phone feel decent enough during those hours...shh don’t tell my wife! ;)

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#159

Post by Matticus_Rex » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

jkilpatr wrote: post #110

corey_moncure wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already illegal twice over. Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services.

> Anyone "forwarding" packets from a connection to an ISP is almost certainly in breach of contract. You can buy resaleable backhaul it's just a drag and expensive. NYC mesh gets free resaleable backhaul and it's a key thing for them. > Amateur packet radio service regulations state that you may not use it for applications that are available over commercial services. point to point long distance antennas on free spec…

Heh, I clicked the comments on this to make sure Althea was being talked about. Glad to see you guys are getting deserved attention!

Re: New York City Neighbors Build Cheaper Way to Connect to Web

#160

Post by Seb-C » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

I love this idea and concept, and I hope it will work well and expand. But if such a concept were to work and expand to big cities, I wonder what will happen to people living outside big cities...

While I don't know anything about the US market, I also wonder what is the motivation to make this project at home instead of mobile-based. Since we all have super-powerful computers in our pockets, it seems to me that we could have an easier similar solution using a smartphone mesh, especially in big and crowded cities?