Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#481

Post by hokkos » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:33 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

You are cherry picking the second stats of your document, but the first one indicate that France and USA are very similar. For Paris, it is exactly the same number as NYC : 1h30, the number you used it from an error in the article, if you look at the source it separate the home/work duration to the whole transport time in a day (for example to go to a concert after work).

https://www.iau-idf.fr/fileadmin/NewEtudes/Etude_1371/NR_745...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_New_York_Cit...

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#482

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:34 PM UTC

n4r9 wrote: post #417

padobson wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget we also spend less on feeding ourselves than anyone else in the world[0]. [0] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/this-map-shows-how-mu...

That's partly due to lower food standards, surely? Salmonella causes hundreds of deaths per year in the US but I believe almost zero in the US.

If you are going to make inflammatory statements like that, at least back them up with data. Per Table 3[1], the Americans and Europe have roughly the same death rate from salmonella.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4668831/

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#483

Post by tkahnoski » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:40 PM UTC

It would seem logical that this is easier in cities that existed before the car vs cities that existed after. Those cities would have had sufficient residential and commercial density that the adapted to facilitating travel by car and truck and could more easily adapt back vs what we see with post-car cities that are sprawling.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#484

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:42 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #454

rpedela wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While traveling outside the US, I have found many people think Americans are cold and heartless and just let people die. It is an understandable conclusion the way people talk about the US system in the media and internet, but it also isn't true. The US has dysfunctional, public healthcare but it isn't so dysfunctional that you just die if you fall or get an ear infection without insurance. So saying the US has "no p…

But there are people who choose to die rather than risk bankrupting their family with uncontrollable medical costs. So there's plenty of drama. Medical bankruptcy in particular is something that I don't think occurs anywhere else.

> So there's plenty of drama. Medical bankruptcy in particular is something that I don't think occurs anywhere else.

I doubt the veracity of this oft-repeated meme, but I'll let Snopes provide the detailed analysis: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/643000-bankruptcies-in-the...

I would appreciate similarly-detailed evidence to the contrary.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#485

Post by davesmith1983 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #450

davesmith1983 wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting tbh if it was the same amount of time I would just drive in. Outside of London the train is always slower. I used to live in Manchester and get the train into Stoke. Driving was always faster without exception. Generally it was cheaper as well (I have a crappy old diesel astra that is even cheaper to repair and I will drive it til the wheels fall off).

All things being equal I'd rather take the train - you can read, work, watch TV The main benefit of driving is not having to wait for a specific train. From where I live in south cheshire, it's quicker to get the train into Manchester than drive (although quicker to drive to Stoke than train). That's with a 0930 arrival in Picadilly Gardens. Same to get to Cardiff, Birmingham and certainly London (2h15 to Euston, vs…

Virgin trains wants basically another 10-15 a month on top of your journey for internet and you can't take a bike on their trains without phoning ahead first. Cross country aren't much better.

Phone internet doesn't work on the train typically. That combined with the travel sickness after each journey make the car much more appealing.

I will never go back to using the train as long as I can legally drive. They are just garbage in the UK and expensive.

I doubt I will buy a new car either. I own two cars. I have an old 1994 mercedes SL which is kept in a storage garage at the moment and the other car is a 2005 vauxhall astra that is getting up to 400,000 miles and doesn't show any signs of dying just yet. Every newer car I have driven is full of mostly electric crap which tends to break or they have some awful drive by wire nonsense that takes the feeling out of the vehicle.

I think much like the operating systems I use, I am going to resist using any newer tech as long as I am able to.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#486

Post by novok » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

agent008t wrote: post #400

ckris wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say most cities unfortunately. European cities are quite walkable and not as sprawling as American ones. But it is still pretty easy to end up were only cars can go not that far from the city center, or where there is only the occasional bus. Asia is really the leader in public transport now. I think the article is slightly misleading. Currently in Europe things like bike infrastructure and public transpor…

It's the same reason why you can have vending machines everywhere in Japan but not in the US. Uniformly high cultural level (relatively speaking), as well as a high level of trust (justified) probably has a lot to do with it.

I don't see how a lack of uniform culture and trust prevents vending machines elsewhere, or what it has to do with vending machine proliferation?

In japan you even have vending machines to pay for your restaurant food inside the restaurant, where your usually paying upfront. And some parking lots have per stall locks that don't let you drive away until you pay. You could argue that is symbolic of lower "trust".

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#487

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #346

neuronic wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spent 6 years in the US as a European. By far the worst part on a daily basis was the missing public transportation due to the enormous focus on cars. Many towns didn't even attempt to be accessible to anyone without a car. I sometimes waited for hours in NY state blizzards to catch a bus before I was able to afford a car. I walked 2-3 hours to a mall and to Walmart when all other students went home for break. Bus se…

There's an old conspiracy, although its accuracy is debatable, google the "General Motors streetcar conspiracy." Another potential possibility is many cities scrapped their streetcars for spare metal during WWII. Along with that, market forces and lobbying and policy by people like Robert Moses, the current form of America was created.

The veracity of the story notwithstanding, the core of the conspiracy, though, was to push buses over streetcars, not cars.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#488

Post by tarsinge » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:47 PM UTC

agent008t wrote: post #404

tarsinge wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind this is specific to the US, in Paris you have a lot of suits going to the office using the public transportation (me included), though it depends on the line and the hour of the day.

Is it not more out of necessity though? Would those people not prefer to drive if that was a viable option? In Paris specifically, the public transportation is fairly unpleasant - a lot of homeless people, antisocial behavior, bad odours, etc. Not sure how it is during rush hour, but probably uncomfortably packed too, so the ideal that Americans seem to have of sitting in a pleasant train reading a book or doing some…

It depends but for me definitely not. I have a car and much prefer public transports instead of having to be stuck in traffic then having the hassle of parking the car. I feel way more free in the city without my car, and the journey is faster as well.

You are right that it’s quite packed in the rush hour, but you can still read a book standing.

Regarding the other issues you cite it really depends of the line. The one I take regularly (RER A) is very calm and clean. And keep in mind that there are more than 1 million passengers every day. Touristic areas are certainly problematic but it’s a completely different issue (to put it simply a lot of touristic areas in Paris are dirty and/or in sketchy neighborhoods to start with. Parisians usually don’t go or work there).

Source: taking public transports nearly everyday since more than 15 years in the area. I love my car but for road trips and going to the countryside.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#489

Post by novok » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:50 PM UTC

exergy wrote: post #365

briandear wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checks? France loves checks and use them more than Americans. No public health care? That isn’t true either. Medicaid and Medicare are public health care. Another legitimate peculiarity of Americans is the vastly higher disposable income compared to most other countries. Even with all of the “free” stuff, the French have lower wages and far less disposable income than Americans.

The French have the RIB system, wherein you can send a snapshot of what your account details are, and the bills are automatically deducted from there. In practice, that means you need to use cheques MUCH less frequently than in the US. What's worse, the US doesn't have an easy way to transfer money electronically between banks! Thus requiring even more cheques.

It's because the USA decided paypal was the way to do C2C transfers between banks and decided not to develop their own as a result.

You also have venmo, square cash, fb messenger, etc.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#490

Post by boohoojangles » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

sqren wrote: post #312

codebolt wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many kids do you have? Any more than one and car becomes necessary in my experience.

To the people who say you need a car if you have kids - this is how we do it in Copenhagen: https://live.staticflickr.com/3662/3465284112_5aab494014_b.j... A transporter bike can carry 2-3 kids easily. It's the most convenient, cheap and healthy option. As soon as the kids are old enough they get their own bike. Of course, it's convenient to have access to a car a couple of times a month. But definitely not on a dail…

Hi fellow Copenhagener,

There are few things that make Copenhagen attractive to own a Christiania bike:

1- Very flat city and mild climate, although wet sometimes. 2- The city if fairly small geographically. 3- Public transit is a bit slow. 4- Very high taxes on cars. When I compare to Malmö, I have the impression most people there own cars. 5- Vast majority of people I know who live outside Copenhagen main neighborhoods own a car. Bearing in mind that outside Copenhagen isn't that far in distance but enough to degrade commute and life style without a car.