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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#221

Post by hvidgaard »

IloveHN84 wrote: post #180
JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

Don't let be fooled by the "tourist impression". Staying for some days isn't the same as living in a place, involving commuting to work, bringing children to school, etc Every city looks nice as a Tourist, but then it's hard if you live there and in the false zone of the city (=farest away)

Often the school is within biking distance of where you live, or they can take the bus - contrary to what many Americans think, even 6 year olds are capable of doing this alone, and they will not be kidnapped.

Commuting to work usually involves getting on the bus/subway only a short walk away. It's more stress free than sitting in traffic.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#222

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

masklinn wrote: post #210
closeparen wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree, but I think it's worth considering that public transit commutes might be longer because people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. To look at two extremes, 45 minutes of bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go driving is a lot less compelling than 45 minutes of reading on a commuter train with a comfortable seat.

> people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. My knowledge of "popular" underground (London) or metro (Paris) lines makes that very unlikely, they're hot, way overcrowded, and odd-smelling when they don't outright stink. Very useful and convenient, and can be pleasant outside of peak hours, but back when I worked in Paris despite not being a morning person I switched my work ho…

> I switched my work hours to take the metro way off-peak (between 6 and 7)

Yeah, I did the same, and sometimes I feel this is the second most productive time of the day.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#223

Post by vr46 »

masklinn wrote: post #210
closeparen wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree, but I think it's worth considering that public transit commutes might be longer because people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. To look at two extremes, 45 minutes of bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go driving is a lot less compelling than 45 minutes of reading on a commuter train with a comfortable seat.

> people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. My knowledge of "popular" underground (London) or metro (Paris) lines makes that very unlikely, they're hot, way overcrowded, and odd-smelling when they don't outright stink. Very useful and convenient, and can be pleasant outside of peak hours, but back when I worked in Paris despite not being a morning person I switched my work ho…

London’s public transport consists of trains and buses, not just the tube. And there are several air-conditioned ‘metro’ lines, all the sub-surface lines. The others are hot and horrible, I agree, but the public transport network in London is second to none. It also includes bicycles if you want the wind in your hair.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#224

Post by r00fus »

codebolt wrote: post #211
oefrha wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

How many kids do you have? Any more than one and car becomes necessary in my experience.

Are you talking about shuttling your kids to school? I know in Japan most kids 6y+ just take themselves on public transport or walking.

How is it done in other countries?

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#225

Post by isolli »

rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

It's an interesting point, but I would like to correct one thing: when people in Paris don't buy cars, in most cases it's not because they don't have the means but because it's highly impractical to drive one.

Besides, the French may have lower disposable income, but they have much longer holidays and work way fewer hours on average.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#226

Post by vnorilo »

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

This European spent a couple of carless months in Pittsburgh and found the public transit pretty decent. Only ride-hailed a handful of times. I do realize that Pittsburgh is probably not a median US city, but serves to remind us in the old world that there's a huge variety of different sorts of places in the US.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#227

Post by oefrha »

baby wrote: post #217
oefrha wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

Same here. Moved from Europe to SF. I missed taking walks and seeing plenty of things. Things are really quiet here.

Can’t be that bad in SF. I first lived in SV then in Greater NY Area, but not in the cities. In either case there’s like one or two small grocery stores within walking distance, I can’t even do proper shopping without a car, unless I’m willing to bike for forty minutes or more in the two-feet-wide bike lanes (sometimes nonexistent) without any separation from motor traffic. (And in the latter area, should I choose to bike, I would be the only cyclist in miles.)

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#228

Post by jacquesm »

closeparen wrote: post #175
rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

I tend to agree, but I think it's worth considering that public transit commutes might be longer because people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. To look at two extremes, 45 minutes of bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go driving is a lot less compelling than 45 minutes of reading on a commuter train with a comfortable seat.

> 45 minutes of reading on a commuter train with a comfortable seat

I've never seen that train. The ones I am in - when I am in them, I avoid them as much as I can - are crowded and reading is definitely not going to happen, standing is more common than sitting.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#229

Post by pjmlp »

Kind of.

As a lucky one to live in one of those future cities, yes it is cool to move around.

However living on the suburbs or not being lucky to live in a few selected cities per country and it is back to choosing between 1h - 2h of commute time due to multiple exchanges and schedule times, or do the same way in about 30m.

Good that we are making progress, but not every city is Amsterdam, Berlin, Rome, Antwerp... nor everyone happens to live in the city center.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#230

Post by aivisol »

I was wondering how people who live in cities in carless mode manage when they have kids. Since I could not find by simply skimming the comments, I searched for "kids" keyword, but so far it only appears twice in 200+ comments. Do people move out of cities immediately when they have kids or they have no opinion about this topic?
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