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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#201

Post by oefrha »

IloveHN84 wrote: post #180
JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

Don't let be fooled by the "tourist impression". Staying for some days isn't the same as living in a place, involving commuting to work, bringing children to school, etc Every city looks nice as a Tourist, but then it's hard if you live there and in the false zone of the city (=farest away)

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#202

Post by lsc »

wildmusings wrote: post #185
rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

It’s also worth remembering how comfortable cars are compared to being packed like a sardine in public transit next to total strangers, some of whom are rude or unhygienic.

I'm personally uncomfortable driving even really nice cars, 'cause you have to pay careful attention to not kill someone. I mean, driving can be fun or exciting - but it's not comfortable or relaxing, I would argue, at least not driving in places where there are other people.

On public transit, on the other hand, I can relax and read and pretty safely ignore the world. Worst case someone grabs my kindle or my phone and runs. I can afford a new phone. (which hasn't happened to me; I'm just saying, that's the biggest risk I see on public transit from relaxing my vigilance. In a car, well, a lot of people have killed other humans because they let their attention wander or decided to change the radio station at an unlucky moment.)

I mean, I'm not saying that your view of comfort is invalid... I'm just saying it's not universal.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#203

Post by atoav »

wildmusings wrote: post #185
rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

It’s also worth remembering how comfortable cars are compared to being packed like a sardine in public transit next to total strangers, some of whom are rude or unhygienic.

Depends on your city, but in the european metropolis I lived in, packed public transport was the exception (so was rude behaviour and smell). Contrary to that traffic jams and endless searches for parking lots were the norm when I went by car.

European cities are for historical reasons less practical to commute to by car, because they are dense, have never been planned with cars in mind and there is literally no space for your car. In such a setting a well funded public transport system makes all the sense in the world, because it uses the space more efficiently than the usual one-person-car-commuter.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#205

Post by ant6n »

rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

HN is generally pro-car. Car are viewed as an absolute necessity, and the climate problem is gonna be solved via a tech-fix by going electric, ignoring that this isn't really a solution.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#206

Post by onion2k »

H8crilA wrote: post #197
13of40 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you have that skill after years of having a computer drive you around.

It's not hard to learn how to drive. Otherwise not ~everybody would be able to do it. I don't think that self driving cars will replace all cars immediately. That makes little sense from CAPEX perspective, cars are fine for 5, 10, maybe 15 years. You'll not replace an okay car for the latest self driving vehicle, dumping the previous car to the junkyard. Rollout may take decades. And we still don't know when are they…

It's not hard to learn how to drive in a society where most people want to learn. A couple of decades after self-driving cars are commonplace there won't be any instructors working in cities, the rules will be very restrictive for what human drivers are allowed to do, and lessons will be astromonically expensive due to the low demand.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#207

Post by TomMarius »

atoav wrote: post #203
wildmusings wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also worth remembering how comfortable cars are compared to being packed like a sardine in public transit next to total strangers, some of whom are rude or unhygienic.

Depends on your city, but in the european metropolis I lived in, packed public transport was the exception (so was rude behaviour and smell). Contrary to that traffic jams and endless searches for parking lots were the norm when I went by car. European cities are for historical reasons less practical to commute to by car, because they are dense, have never been planned with cars in mind and there is literally no spac…

Actually most major cities were rebuilt after WW2 due to destruction. Prague is an example of a city that wasn't rebuilt and the city centre is unusable by public transport - car is about the longest vehicle that can fit in many turns there. We solve that with underground garages and subway.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#208

Post by lazyjones »

pjc50 wrote: post #35
Scoundreller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are they the same stores? It's probably fine for the landlords, but if you're leasing storespace and selling bulk/heavy goods, or something so specialized that people from afar drive to you, you're going to have trouble. If you're running a restaurant or cafe, you're in a great situation. It's a solvable issue, but it may be ignored.

Those stores tended to already have migrated to the edge of the city during the car era. If you're coming a long way the last thing you want is to drive into the city. Or they deliver, e.g furniture.

Not true. Sure, one of the largest shopping centers in Europe is south of Vienna now (has been there since 1976), but the street mentioned here was very accessible by car and people (including me) found it very comfortable to park in one of the public garages and go shopping there. There was also a large furniture store with its own pickup spot/garage ("Leiner", closed now after going broke).

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#209

Post by seer »

wpietri wrote: post #140
seer wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if part of the success of silicon valley can be attributed to this? In most other places you can spend your time doing interesting things all day long and never get bored. Whereas in SV you just start a business? How many people would not have began their software ventures if there was enough comedy clubs, pubs, theaters, community centers, beaches etc a short 10mins walk from home? Actually wondering?

It's a good question, but I think if that were true, we wouldn't see many startups in places like SF and NYC, and quite a lot of them in the middle of nowhere. For me, interactions with novel people, experiences, and ideas are a big feeder for my own ideas.

Never been to SF (or US for that matter) so genuinely interested if this is a factor - from all the biographies I’ve read and looking from the sidelines it seems to me - novel people + capital + entrepreneurship + technical expertise (post apollo) + boredom are the key sauce for those kinds of things.

And thats not about what SV is today. I was lead to believe the so named HBO show portrays it quite accurately. I was thinking more what it was in the 70s.

Though to be honest living in the mediterranean I vastly prefer the walkable nature oriented laid back kind of places myself. Way more fun (and healthy) to live in. I was just wondering if that boredom thing was a factor

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#210

Post by masklinn »

closeparen wrote: post #175
rayiner wrote: post #170

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

I tend to agree, but I think it's worth considering that public transit commutes might be longer because people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it. To look at two extremes, 45 minutes of bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go driving is a lot less compelling than 45 minutes of reading on a commuter train with a comfortable seat.

> people find time on public transit more pleasant, and are willing to do more of it.

My knowledge of "popular" underground (London) or metro (Paris) lines makes that very unlikely, they're hot, way overcrowded, and odd-smelling when they don't outright stink.

Very useful and convenient, and can be pleasant outside of peak hours, but back when I worked in Paris despite not being a morning person I switched my work hours to take the metro way off-peak (between 6 and 7) so I could commute with some fresh air and have more than "no room whatsoever".

On the most populated lines, the trains are packed line sardine cans, and I don't know now but 20 years back there was no AC let alone AC which could handle a car packed to the brim in high summer.

Just to be clear: I didn't regret not having a car one bit, and given my commute was directly through Paris (from one near suburb to an other on the opposite side of the city) I don't think commuting by car would have been more pleasant. Couldn't have commuted reading books for starters, that's an advantage of a somewhat lengthy train commute (bus is less comfortable for reading especially if you tend to get car sickness, and obviously you can't read in your car though I guess audiobooks might be an option these days).

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