Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#151

Post by petschge » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

zyzyis wrote: post #64

I have lived in both Europe and US for years. It is not fair to compare both places as the population density is totally different. You still do need a car if you are living in suburb area in Europe (in my case the Netherlands). And in US there is much less people living in the city.

That is not completely true. 50% of the US population live in just 35 metropolitan areas (Los Angeles, CA; New York, NY; Chicago, IL; Philadelphia, PA; Washington, DC; Detroit, MI; Houston, TX; Atlanta, GA; Dallas, TX; Boston, MA; San Bernardino, CA; Phoenix, AZ; Minneapolis, MN; Orange County, CA; San Diego, CA; Nassau, NY; St. Louis, IL; Baltimore, MD; Seattle, WA; Tampa, FL; Oakland, CA; Pittsburgh, PA; Miami, FL; Cleveland, OH; Denver, CO; Newark, NJ; Portland, OR; Kansas City, MO; San Francisco, CA; Fort Worth, TX; San Jose, CA; Cincinnati, OH; Orlando, FL; Sacramento, CA; Fort Lauderdale, FL) that together have 173328 square miles. That is a density of 654 inhabitants per square mile or 253 inhabitants per square kilometer. Compare that with the 232 inhabitants per square kilometer in Germany, or the 118 inhabitants per square kilometer in France. And yes you can live without a car even in rural Germany (at least if you don't have kids).

The 20 densest metropolitan areas contain 25% of the US population and have 400 inhabitants per square kilometer, comparable to the 416 inhabitants per square kilometer averaged over the Netherlands.

The lack of public transport in the US is not a density problem. That is just the excuse because people don't want to change.

EDIT: Before anybody says "but the density in German cities is much higher": I lived for years in a German district with a density of 217 inhabitants per square kilometer, without needing a car.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#152

Post by flukus » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #50

A thought in the back of my mind is fear of government oppression in a world without prevalent cars. If you have a car you can travel hundreds of miles with few limitations and it's particularly hard to quash this even in an oppressive state. If you only have your feet and public transit you are very limited to distance and location and tracking movements is an easy feature of the system. Things going wrong? The gove…

> A car grants a whole lot of freedom that many progressive people are really excited to give away.

A car grants dependence on a long supply chain (oil drilling, shipping, processing, storage) of fuel that the government can easily sever. Not only are you dependent on the supply chain but you are dependent on the government and foreign governments to maintain it.

If you really want to be a freedom loving, rugged individualist then you'd get an off road capable bike or a horse.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#153

Post by whatusername » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #142

bllguo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an interesting point but such a quintessentially american mindset imo. This thing could potentially used wrong so let's build in all kinds of hedges and failsafes; our freedoms could be impinged in these edge cases so this is a no go, etc. cannot help but lament the inefficiency and stagnation arising from this culture of distrust

Sorry to the American folks here, this might sound offensive, but I agree with bllguo. As an European colechchristensen's point of view feels alien. I'd argue that for the average European this kind of comment would seem paranoid bordering on insane. I guess some cultural differences are found way deeper than you'd expect. The European point of view about the whole "government opression" thing is that you don't fight…

on the cultural differences.. I've always loved the saying: Europeans see 100km as a long distance, while Americans/Australians see 100 years as a long time.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#154

Post by jcranmer » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:12 AM UTC

porknubbins wrote: post #62

maxsilver wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is done either for public use (tearing out a lane of public travel, and replacing it with a lane for buses only) or privatizing the street altogether (tearing out a lane, and replacing it with front yards, or restaurant seating, or whatever).

I believe you but have never heard of cities anywhere removing roads or lanes, only adding more. Can you give any examples of cities that have actually done this?

I spent a lot of time this last weekend walking along such a reduction of road in NYC--Broadway near Times Square has undergone such a road diet.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#155

Post by davesmith1983 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #87

isostatic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to drive into west London for 10am, most days it would take 45 minutes to travel a mile from Hammersmith to Shepherd’s Bush.

Note for others not familiar, if you go Hammersmith Tube Station to Shepherd's Bush Tube Station overland by bicycle then it takes five minutes, depending on traffic lights. That is actual five minutes, as in three hundred seconds. Clearly both areas are larger than their respective train stations but the stations are representative. To actually get a tube or other train between the two is not entirely direct, you wo…

Most people are coming from outside of London and what you find is that it is usually quicker to drive in and just sit in the traffic than mess about doing park and rides and then travelling in.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#156

Post by RyanAF7 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #140

seer wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if part of the success of silicon valley can be attributed to this? In most other places you can spend your time doing interesting things all day long and never get bored. Whereas in SV you just start a business? How many people would not have began their software ventures if there was enough comedy clubs, pubs, theaters, community centers, beaches etc a short 10mins walk from home? Actually wondering?

It's a good question, but I think if that were true, we wouldn't see many startups in places like SF and NYC, and quite a lot of them in the middle of nowhere. For me, interactions with novel people, experiences, and ideas are a big feeder for my own ideas.

Venture Capitalists aren't in the middle of nowhere.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#157

Post by tspike » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:17 AM UTC

porknubbins wrote: post #62

maxsilver wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is done either for public use (tearing out a lane of public travel, and replacing it with a lane for buses only) or privatizing the street altogether (tearing out a lane, and replacing it with front yards, or restaurant seating, or whatever).

I believe you but have never heard of cities anywhere removing roads or lanes, only adding more. Can you give any examples of cities that have actually done this?

One example is the conversion of the Embarcadero freeway into a pedestrian friendly waterfront zone, although that's not quite a fair example given that it took an earthquake destroying it to give it the oomph it needed to happen.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#158

Post by dwd » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:17 AM UTC

barbs wrote: post #136

jdnenej wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same situation as you. Currently living with parents out in the suburbs. Plan to move later so I don't need or want a car but I'm basically stuck at home when not working. The only thing there is to do here is cycling which is relatively safe but you can't realistically get anywhere so I do it just for sport. The car culture is pretty bad in Australia as well.

Do you live in Australia? I've lived in Sydney most of my life and I've found it fairly easy to get around with public transport. I'm currently living in Melbourne and it's even better, and has much better support for bikes.

I lived for a couple of years in the Melbourne CBD (off Lt Lonsdale) and never had a need for a car the whole time.

Different story later living in Elwood and working in Port Melbourne, not having a car to commute along the Esplanade would have been a huge time sink.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#159

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:24 AM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

[deleted]

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#160

Post by m0zg » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:26 AM UTC

I lived in a city with extensive public transportation infrastructure (Moscow) for 7 years without a car. TBH, I would not trade my current suburban US lifestyle for a high density city. Want groceries? Gotta carry them in all the way from the store (which usually within walking distance, but still, shit's heavy unless you buy groceries every day, which can be quite wasteful). Job not within walking distance (which it rarely is)? Say hello to 1-2hrs of daily commute (about 35 min of which for me was walking). Kid has hobbies that aren't within walking distance? Pain. Need to get something from a store that's not nearby (i.e. hardware, household goods)? Long commute _and_ carry stuff as well. Need to get something you can't carry? Gotta rent a car or pay for delivery. It's snowing or raining? Tough luck, gotta walk to the subway and/or store all the same. Etc, etc. Hundreds of these situations where in the US I just get into a car and go wherever I want. I don't even get wet if it's raining outside.

This "car-less" stuff only looks good (on paper) to two categories of people:

  1. Europeans who never had a car and therefore don't fully understand the upsides
  2. Americans who never lived without a car and therefore don't fully understand the downsides