Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#141

Post by wpietri » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:34 AM UTC

codeswap wrote: post #70

benrbray wrote: post #52

Not just Europe! Tokyo, for example, is a remarkably pedestrian and bicycle-friendly city, despite also supporting quite heavy traffic in some areas. And of course, the extensive train network completely eliminates the need for a car in daily life. If you pick a random place on the map (like [1]), you'll see that the high-speed traffic is very well-separated from residential areas, with infrequent intersections. Ther…

The Superblock. This is what makes the these cities so comfortable to live in. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_block#Superblock

Oh, interesting! I was just thinking how much space in SF is wasted on roads. I'd love to see them create superblocks and turn some streets into parks, housing, etc.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#142

Post by oblio » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:40 AM UTC

bllguo wrote: post #61

colechristensen wrote: post #50

A thought in the back of my mind is fear of government oppression in a world without prevalent cars. If you have a car you can travel hundreds of miles with few limitations and it's particularly hard to quash this even in an oppressive state. If you only have your feet and public transit you are very limited to distance and location and tracking movements is an easy feature of the system. Things going wrong? The gove…

an interesting point but such a quintessentially american mindset imo. This thing could potentially used wrong so let's build in all kinds of hedges and failsafes; our freedoms could be impinged in these edge cases so this is a no go, etc. cannot help but lament the inefficiency and stagnation arising from this culture of distrust

Sorry to the American folks here, this might sound offensive, but I agree with bllguo. As an European colechchristensen's point of view feels alien.

I'd argue that for the average European this kind of comment would seem paranoid bordering on insane.

I guess some cultural differences are found way deeper than you'd expect.

The European point of view about the whole "government opression" thing is that you don't fight tyranny with guns and cars (LOL), but with a population educated about the benefits of democracy. If you've lost the people, nothing can save you.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#143

Post by stingrae » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

seer wrote: post #137

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

I wonder if part of the success of silicon valley can be attributed to this? In most other places you can spend your time doing interesting things all day long and never get bored. Whereas in SV you just start a business? How many people would not have began their software ventures if there was enough comedy clubs, pubs, theaters, community centers, beaches etc a short 10mins walk from home? Actually wondering?

That is not my experience with Silicon Valley. My experience is an area of mostly suburbs with small strip malls and 10 block downtowns. Cars are a must and public transit is terrible.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#144

Post by ghaff » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:45 AM UTC

asteli wrote: post #90

pessimizer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is seeing a large move back toward cities. Is it really, or are you using "US" to mean white middle class? I googled and can't find a reference for this - do you have one? Edit: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.GROW?locations=U... As far as I can tell from this graph, urban population growth in the US was lower in 2018 than it's ever been.

Well, a lot of America is white and middle class. The push to move to suburbs was fueled by the white middle class, who fled the cities during and after desegregation, and was termed the White Flight. There's a very real displacement problem that's linked to the urban population growth that you seem skeptical of; marginalized communities are being priced out of their long-time homes, being pushed out of urban centers…

Mind you, "urban" by census definitions is very broad. I live in the middle of about 100 acres with a couple of neighbors 40 miles outside of a major city and I'm considered urban.

A lot or urbanization isn't Brooklyn. It's smaller cities with minimal transit systems.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#145

Post by keenmaster » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:45 AM UTC

barbs wrote: post #136

jdnenej wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same situation as you. Currently living with parents out in the suburbs. Plan to move later so I don't need or want a car but I'm basically stuck at home when not working. The only thing there is to do here is cycling which is relatively safe but you can't realistically get anywhere so I do it just for sport. The car culture is pretty bad in Australia as well.

Do you live in Australia? I've lived in Sydney most of my life and I've found it fairly easy to get around with public transport. I'm currently living in Melbourne and it's even better, and has much better support for bikes.

The Bondi to Coogee beach walk is spectacular. I also like that there’s one street which cuts through the entirety of downtown Sydney (George Street).

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#146

Post by foolfoolz » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:46 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #10

It's a lot easier for Europe to go carless than the USA. They have better intra-city public transit for one. Also, most (all?) of their major cities laid out their grids before the invention of the car. In the USA, even older cities had all but their city centers designed around cars, and if you look at the top 10 cities, 7 of the 10 saw >90% of their road construction after the invention of the car. That being said,…

we build new cities next to existing cities. very few cities spring up in the middle of nowhere. if you want to connect back to the original town, say mountain house to oakland, you’ll drive in to oakland. or drive to bart and bart in. it’s not realistic that everyone lives close enough to public transit that they can bike or walk or bus to it. a big draw of living out of the most populated areas is having your own house and land somewhere quiet. and this is definitely engrained in our culture, it’s the american dream to own your own home

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#147

Post by b3b0p » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:46 AM UTC

Car free in downtown Minneapolis for a while now and lease out my parking spot for $200/month.

Don't see how it could be any more convenient, easy, affordable and stress free of owning a car. Winter is easy with the Skyway [0].

I've seen people go get Starbucks in their pajama's, I can go to the gym, work, grocery store, Target, and more all through the Skyway when weather is bad.

The two light rails are only a block away and go from downtown to Mall of America and University of Minnesota. I have multiples of bus stops right outside my condo.

I usually just fill up a GoToCard with $20 when needed and go when ever and wherever I please without issues. Which gets me access to any bus or light rails.

The only downside I have so far is that I haven't found a good stop off the bus or light rails where I can conveniently and quickly get to play outdoor pick up hockey.

[0] http://www.skywaymyway.com

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#148

Post by ghaff » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #97

jimbokun wrote: post #43

On vacation in Rome this summer, there is so much foot traffic on the major streets there is often no room for cars, and they need to inch forward until the people in front of them notice them and move out of the way. Seemed like almost all the cars were taxis, too. So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical. Same with Florence and Cinque Terre.

> So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical. YMMV, I spent my last 2 holidays in Italy with my car and went pretty much everywhere, including the old town of Siena, the center of Florence, Lucca by car. Italy is exceptionally car-friendly, but some tourists seem to be afraid to go.

Driving in Tuscany can be a bit intimidating. I've done it, albeit before GPS, and in retrospect I'd probably not have driven. That said, you look at getting to and around smaller towns and it can get difficult and time-consuming to depend on busses.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#149

Post by notSupplied » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

seer wrote: post #137

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

I wonder if part of the success of silicon valley can be attributed to this? In most other places you can spend your time doing interesting things all day long and never get bored. Whereas in SV you just start a business? How many people would not have began their software ventures if there was enough comedy clubs, pubs, theaters, community centers, beaches etc a short 10mins walk from home? Actually wondering?

Considering that every other American suburb has these same qualities of being boring, yet did not become Silicon Valley, I'd say this has very little impact on why Silicon Valley is what it is.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#150

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #60

jedberg wrote: post #10

It's a lot easier for Europe to go carless than the USA. They have better intra-city public transit for one. Also, most (all?) of their major cities laid out their grids before the invention of the car. In the USA, even older cities had all but their city centers designed around cars, and if you look at the top 10 cities, 7 of the 10 saw >90% of their road construction after the invention of the car. That being said,…

Unfortunately “new cities” develop in places where everyone is used to driving, so it takes a lot to overcome a car centric culture. I live in a college town in a rural area. The transition to public transportation happens when parking becomes expensive or impractical (such as at the university) so people park and ride on a bus. But that still requires cars. Frankly cars have value that’s hard to replace when there’s…

How many such "new cities" are there really? Car culture wasn't a thing until the 1950s and I can't think of a single metropolitan city that was founded after that.