Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 619 posts

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#91

Post by zfgnu »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #71
colechristensen wrote: post #50

A thought in the back of my mind is fear of government oppression in a world without prevalent cars. If you have a car you can travel hundreds of miles with few limitations and it's particularly hard to quash this even in an oppressive state. If you only have your feet and public transit you are very limited to distance and location and tracking movements is an easy feature of the system. Things going wrong? The gove…

But a police officer can stop your car _right now_ if your passenger-side taillight is broken and then search your vehicle for a variety of things. So many marijuana related arrests have happened exactly this way. With license plate scanners and chips being embedded into cars, the ability to be pervasively tracked in a car is more apparent than ever. In contrast, walking or biking doesn't require registration or lice…

>But a police officer can stop your car _right now_ if your passenger-side taillight is broken and then search your vehicle for a variety of things. So many marijuana related arrests have happened exactly this way.

Sounds like the arrest happened because of the marihuana, and not because of the broken taillight. How about not having drugs in your car, though.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#92

Post by lazyjones »

danans wrote: post #86
lazyjones wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fast forward to 2019 and people love it. Some people do, others don't. Currently they are complaining about homeless and drunk people hanging out there. To be honest, it's more crowded and looks desolate now. The shops aren't deserted, but it's a different crowd. And everybody complains about bicycles going 30 Km/h and endangering pedestrians.

> it's more crowded and looks desolate now. "desolate" means the opposite of "crowded". > The shops aren't deserted, but it's a different crowd. So the shops are missing the kind of people you would like to see shopping, but full of a "different" kind of people. What kind of people are those?

> "desolate" means the opposite of "crowded".

No, it also means:

: showing the effects of abandonment and neglect : DILAPIDATED

> What kind of people are those?

Bums, poor people, slob tourists.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#93

Post by cgrealy »

northwest65 wrote: post #59
colechristensen wrote: post #50

A thought in the back of my mind is fear of government oppression in a world without prevalent cars. If you have a car you can travel hundreds of miles with few limitations and it's particularly hard to quash this even in an oppressive state. If you only have your feet and public transit you are very limited to distance and location and tracking movements is an easy feature of the system. Things going wrong? The gove…

Not even necessarily without cars... imagine if you could sell the populous on a car with limited range that took ages to fill back up. If they were gullible enough, you could probably even sell it at a premium. What a wonderful stepping stone to the post freedom era.

Yes, if only said car had some other benefit, like being cheaper to run and maintain.

Imagine if the same car had more than enough range for 95% of people's travel and could be filled up at home for a fraction of the cost. Finally, imagine if there was some other indirect benefit, like helping stop the world burn.

What a dystopian nightmare.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#94

Post by noobermin »

colechristensen wrote: post #50

A thought in the back of my mind is fear of government oppression in a world without prevalent cars. If you have a car you can travel hundreds of miles with few limitations and it's particularly hard to quash this even in an oppressive state. If you only have your feet and public transit you are very limited to distance and location and tracking movements is an easy feature of the system. Things going wrong? The gove…

Arguments like this ignore the billions of dollars that maintain and create highways, roads, parking lots that the government already invests in. The blindspot regarding this "freedom" which apparently to some people exists magically is astounding.

The government created the current layout of cities by building highways and making laws and regulations that birthed the city structure we have today. It did not develop organically.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#95

Post by morganherlocker »

analog31 wrote: post #85
rglover wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that work out during the winter up there?

The only thing happening on the island is tourism, which is pretty much gone during the winter, and access to the island is marginal at best when the ferry shuts down for the season. All of the labor is seasonal as well, mostly from overseas.

I went as a kid and recall locals often having snowmobiles as well.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#96

Post by DrOctagon »

Barrin92 wrote: post #53
simias wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how it is in the USA but in France (and I suspect most old European cities) the richer people who can afford to live in the city center are generally in favor of removing cars because they either don't have a car or can afford to pay for a private parking spot while people who live in the suburbs and take their cars to work every day have to suffer the consequences. So you end up with this "class warfare…

>So you end up with this "class warfare" type situation. This is a weird framing because the very poorest segments of society in Europe also tend to live in urban areas and don't even own a car and rely on public transport, so it's more of a class sandwich. The very car reliant demographic seems to be what in the United States is called the 'dream hoarder' class, which is to say the largely socio-economic isolated mi…

Class isn't purely economic. It is the perception of 'inner city elites' being out of touch with the rest of the country.

In the recent Australian election, the (losing) Labour Party had a policy to target 50% of vehicles being electric by 2030.

The Liberal party jumped on this and ran a scare campaign that Labour was trying to take away the vehicles that Australians love for work and recreation, utes and 4WD/SUVs. It worked, not because any inherent inferiority of electric vehicles but, because people don't want to be told what is best for them by people that don't understand their needs.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#97

Post by lazyjones »

jimbokun wrote: post #43

On vacation in Rome this summer, there is so much foot traffic on the major streets there is often no room for cars, and they need to inch forward until the people in front of them notice them and move out of the way. Seemed like almost all the cars were taxis, too. So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical. Same with Florence and Cinque Terre.

> So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical.

YMMV, I spent my last 2 holidays in Italy with my car and went pretty much everywhere, including the old town of Siena, the center of Florence, Lucca by car. Italy is exceptionally car-friendly, but some tourists seem to be afraid to go.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#99

Post by ricardobeat »

porknubbins wrote: post #62
maxsilver wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is done either for public use (tearing out a lane of public travel, and replacing it with a lane for buses only) or privatizing the street altogether (tearing out a lane, and replacing it with front yards, or restaurant seating, or whatever).

I believe you but have never heard of cities anywhere removing roads or lanes, only adding more. Can you give any examples of cities that have actually done this?

Not sure if your question regards the US only, but this is how cities in the Netherlands became bike and pedestrian-friendly starting in the 70s, by removing a lot of roads.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#100

Post by analog31 »

morganherlocker wrote: post #95
analog31 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing happening on the island is tourism, which is pretty much gone during the winter, and access to the island is marginal at best when the ferry shuts down for the season. All of the labor is seasonal as well, mostly from overseas.

I went as a kid and recall locals often having snowmobiles as well.

A slightly more populous island in the north lands:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/22ice.html

Post reply on HN