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Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

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Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#91
post #6

I'm wondering, does anyone have any stories of involving HR in a situation like this (less-than-overt discrimination or harassment from a person more senior/important than you) and getting a positive outcome? At this point whenever I read that someone "reached out to HR to ask for help in navigating the situation" I assume that the main outcome will be to put the company on notice that they need to start working on t…

My first job out of college was for the U.S. Army on behalf of a large military contractor. My team leader worked for a different contractor. In the first few weeks he built up an insane environment of paranoia and micromanagement.

Our customer was a government employee. Twice in my first few months, my team leader came back from her desk yelling things like "YOU ARE SO STUPID" loud enough that everyone in the office could hear. I brought this up to a coworker, and he said that this happened periodically for as long as he had been there.

In retrospect, I should have immediately reported this. Since it was my first "big boy" job, I was feeling out how to deal with it. I figured since the government was our customer, one word from the person he was berating and he'd be ejected into the sun, or maybe everyone knew and this was just how things in this office worked?

Some time later, the micromanagement reached a crescendo. I completed a learning module for an instructor as per their specification and asked to do a demo. Team Lead responded saying no, the simulator was all screwed up and he was going to personally help fix it.

For 3 days in a row my team lead spent all 8 hours of the working day sitting in a chair behind me saying things like "move that box one pixel to the right.. no.. one more.. keep going" as he "felt out" the way the UX should be. I suggested that he could take the source from perforce make these changes from his desk. Nope, he didn't want to do that.

The work product delivered by 2 salaries over 3 days was marginal changes to UI element positioning, misaligning almost all of them in weird ways. I felt like I was going crazy, was he making my projects worse on purpose?

We had an excellent CHI engineer on the team. He had a masters degree in the field. He confirmed that nothing I was being asked to do made any sense at all. Nothing about this made sense.

I asked to take some time and talk to him about his management style. This was a mistake. He started out telling me that I was incompetent, and he needed to "show me how to be a good designer" and that he was going to continue micromanaging me for as long as needed to happen to accomplish this. After about 2 hours of back and forth, he seemed to at least understand that I needed him to back off. As we parted ways, his final thought was "You know what? You need to just shut up and do what you're told."

Yeah, no. I went to my desk immediately and sent an email to the site chief, detailing my experiences with him, and all the stuff he shouted at other people in the office. Despite my belief that everyone must have known what he was doing, that apparently wasn't the case. Government employee was too scared to stand up for herself, despite the fact she had the power to make him disappear instantly. Team Leader was escorted out of the building within 30 minutes and never came back.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#92
This is a pretty tough spot. You don't want to impede someone's career because of there reproductive choices but at the same time were the teams wrong in not wanting to introduce a new manager about to take a months long medical leave?

You can look at the suggested early medical leave as being pushed out (and it certainly could have been) but it also strikes me as a good option if you only want to work in a rock star position at a rock star pace.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#93
post #4

I've spent most entire career at relatively small companies (25-100 employees). I've never seen these types of issues (I can't say they've never happened, I'm just not aware of any). In fact, reading these stories is probably why I've never had the desire to apply to work at any of the large tech companies. I can't say for certain what the differences are, but I think smaller companies tend of have less office politi…

Working in a big-ish company many thousands of employees and this stuff just isn't there. You sign in, do you work, design cool stuff, test it, ship it, maybe have nice off-topic discussions about emerging technologies, or share a recipe with a one or two coworkers. Then 5pm hits, go home and enjoy all that other stuff like politics, hobbies, meetups, family time etc. It's really pretty simple.

I don't understand why Google and others can't be that way. It seems to me they've cultivated this stereotypical / superficial "share everything, we are one big family!" culture. And people, I am guessing mostly younger ones, really buy into it and take it at face value, then get disappointed with things go south.

The idea of an almost free-for-all internal discussion board sounds wrong and almost evil to me. It's a bit like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign - "Yes, please tell us what you disagree with so we can blacklist you easier". Out of all the executives, I can't believe nobody saw the potential issues from it? (That is why I inserted "evil" adjective there, and of course it's a jab their motto).

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should have added, I worked one place we got acquired by a giant company that most here would say is really f*cking evil (TM) and even there I never detected any of the toxic stuff these Google stories talk about. That place was actually Evil enough I quit within a year to go back to another small company but it was nothing like what you read about Google. A different axis of evil.

I should've been more explicit - I haven't experienced any toxicity at Google. However, due to its internal communication culture Google is far more prone to blowups of well-publicized scandals than other companies of similar size. I'll edit my post to make it clearer.

I’m curious how you reconcile the admission that you work at a place with bigoted witch hunts with the claim that you’ve never experienced any toxicity. What is your position on the war with Eastasia?

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#95
post #13

I'm always amazed Google management tolerates things like internal message boards aimed at letting employees create Memes on company time. On the "evil point haired boss" level it seems these types of things like their internal message boards cause a lot of trouble for the company. On the less evil side it seems like employees waste a lot of time on these internal sites and all the internal social justice stuff. Mayb…

12-20 years ago, one of my largest life goals was to work for Google. (It's not anymore. I found other fun and rewarding jobs.)

I don't get why the Google management team allowed their team to get so... well, violently politicized.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but.. keeping politics out of the workplace worked very well for a very long time.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#96

Maybe the (female) manager(s) simply didn't like the woman in question. What is a manager to do, in this day and age, if they are not happy about an employee?

Realize that the person in question is the company's employee, not the manager's employee. Far too many managers see their position as some kind of feudal lord where those beneath them on the hierarchy owe personal allegiance to them. If the manager doesn't like the person, that's quite possibly the fault of the manager, not the person. The manager shouldn't automatically be the one who stays if no working relationsh…

Maybe the person in question shouldn't automatically be the one who stays in a working relationship?

Just because somebody is pregnant, they are not a saint. It is amazing how many assumptions people seem to make here.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#97

So the author was managing a small team and was hold by her manager to get rid of one of her reports because she was pregnant. Now we know why management consists of psychopaths, those who are not evil quit in disgust.

Yes, that is the real issue with these types of things. It's the 'boiling off' effect, or the 'elves leaving middle earth' effect. At first, it's not too bad, it was just one person that was average in many respects. It's that girl that got pregnant, it's that guy with a lot of political leanings in the break room. But slowly, you boil off even the reasonable and good people. It's that now your team is kinda all full of people you don't want a beer with. Now your boss really is a piece of work. Now HR really does take a long time to fix mistakes in your pay. It's slow, but it happens, and it's happened to Google.

Marry that issue with things like Project Dragonfly and that whole debacle. Now remember that the goog knows everywhere your phone has been at 4 am for the last 7+ years, a lot of your emails, and a lot of your photos too.

That 'private data' that you though was harmless is not looking to be so harmless in the hands of people that would do the kind of things that the article mentions.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the pregnant woman claims. The manager could have disliked her for other reasons or considered her unfit for leading people for other reasons.

Here's a thing - the current legal framework means that manager's dislike to a pregnant woman is basically irrelevant.

The legal framework could be wrong, though.

I thought this is about emotional upheaval and hating big corporations, not the law.

If it is about the law, why even discuss it, instead of waiting for the courts to sort it out?

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#99
Worth mentioning TFA is wrong about the Damore memo... it wasn't suggesting that women are less disposed to be "good engineers" only that they are less disposed to seek out a career in engineering to begin with. Quality isn't a part of it. But that doesn't fit an SJW narrative.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#100
post #85
post #60

The only support I received as the victim of my manager’s abuse was encouragement to take advantage of medical leave. This statement is quite telling: first HR goes to lengths to deny that there's any seriously wrong. Then they pretty blatantly acknowledge that yes, things are so fucked up that you'll likely want to take medical leave.

From first-hand experience, I cannot stress this enough: HR's job is to protect management. Period. Full stop. Having going through this type of situation (high-performer until on the wrong side of someone in management), I really didn't understand things until someone pointed something out. I was asked: who hired the manager? The purpose of a manager is to handle the details of the goals of hirer. A musician hires a…

It’s the human resource’s department’s job to protect the company from liability. If they’re not protecting the company from renegade managers they’re not doing a very good job.
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