8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#581

Post by Sawamara » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

Exactly. Its very hard to claim that one is just putting stuff out on "the marketplace of ideas", when in reality, losing ground to an ideology that places people who have non-majority skin color, sexuality or religious views (or lack thereof) below the majority is simply dangerous to any minority, and should not be allowed to fester. This is not just about ideas, its about refusing others the full rights of personhood. And that should not stand in any ethical society.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#582

Post by jmull » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #468

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

Isn't that the key exception of not tolerating intolerance?

That is, the baker's belief is not being tolerated because it is intolerant.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#583

Post by kaolti » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

irvwash wrote: post #440

kaolti wrote: post #348

I've been waiting for answers to these question: What do we think happens to hate when when we ban it in discussions? Evaporates into thin air? Also, is there ANY proof at all that banning hate speech is effective in stopping hateful actions in the short and long term? Answering these questions should be the BASIS for any decisions we make right?

Deciding to commit mass murder rarely happens in a vacuum. It typically happens when you surround yourself all day by people who tell you that mass murder is a good idea. Radicalization is a social phenomenon. I'm critical of censorship, but not because I think it's ineffective.

You've made a case for how radicalisation happens, you've not proved that banning words is effective against it.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#584

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #499

irrational wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

> I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant Not in the subject at hand. I think pretty much everyone reasonable agrees that "kill the {jews,muslims,hispanics}" (once more, folks, this was the THIRD ethnic massacre advertised on 8chan!) is intolerant, no? Can't we start there?

[deleted]

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#585

Post by rockinghigh » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #549

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> some minimum level of education What a bunch of horse crap. Being told what to think, what to buy, who to vote for, how to feel. If you claim to believe in a liberal democracy but want "education" or limited-speech then you don't have must faith in the system. Democracy has been broken since the rise of technology and mass media. If you control the narrative, you control the people, and the power. The outrage over…

I believe you can oppose large corporations without helping terrorism. You can have an opposition without hate speech and bullying.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#586

Post by buttcoinslol » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #483

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It should be noted that the United States at the time of the drafting of the Constitution had way way lower rates of education than today. Even as recently as 1945, the median American only had a 10th grade educa…

Americans in 1789 and 1945 did not have the ability to broadcast their thoughts worldwide for virtually nothing.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#587

Post by simias » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #388

byuu wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of these extremist sites even forbid and censor attempts at calm, level-headed rebuttals to such hatred. They exist solely to propagate bigotry. The dog and pony show from Google and Cloudflare of only stepping in after multiple mass shootings and tons of press coverage tells you all you really need to know about these companies' ethics. They react to sufficiently bad PR, not out of any set of principles, be…

Censorship rarely, if ever, solves anything. These companies are not crime-fighting services and will have no impact on criminal activity.

It doesn't solve it but it definitely helps in some cases: http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf

Because it doesn't have a 100% success rate doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered, otherwise we could use the same logic to dismiss basically any rule, law or regulation ever made.

Echo chambers are never a good thing, echo chambers built around hateful extremist ideologies are a lot worse. By forcing these people to get out of them some good can be achieved. Of course some of them will manage to regroup elsewhere but statistically a significant proportion will return to a more healthy lifestyle.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#588

Post by T4NG » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

orpheline wrote: post #442

sneak wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. What was it you read there that convinced you that websites are capable of turning people into murderers any more than video games are?

An implicit acceptance and endorsement for the messages of hate and violence? I personally doubt violent video games turn people into murderers; I suspect they do desensitize people to violence, and normalize violence. That's the problem with 8chan: violence, hated, bigotry, etc are normalized

>An implicit acceptance and endorsement for the messages of hate and violence?

you mean the same thing alot of movies and videogames do also?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#589

Post by irrational » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:15 PM UTC

newhaus1994 wrote: post #491

irrational wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

The criteria is pretty straightforward: you apply the "intolerance of intolerance" to the first intolerant action in the chain, i.e. the one that infringes unprompted on someone else.

So, the gay couple coming to the baker that doesn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding are the intolerant ones because they are the first intolerant action in the chain? Because you know that will be how it will be spun.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#590

Post by tomohawk » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:15 PM UTC

There are many times when the political, religious, or other leanings of people committing these crimes have been misrepresented by 'media' organizations and politicians and others pushing an agenda, and trying to tie the despicable acts to their opponents, etc., or to make political points.

I've seen far left crazies characterized as far right. I've seen atheists characterized as being christian. I've seen mentally ill people characterized as following some ideology.

In this sort of environment, cutting off access to raw sources just makes these kinds of mischaracterizations even easier to do.

Cutting off people's ability to communicate does not have any benefit. All it does is signal that those cutting off the communication do not have a better idea, or do not know how to sell their idea. It strengthens the hand of those being censored by giving them a real grievance, and makes it more likely that they will find other ways to express their views, which will likely be more violent.